Sticking Notes In Reaper

[mdiemer]

As it happens, notation was the reason I bought Reaper. So no going back. Will have to solve the problem or not use Aria. I have submitted a bug report to the Reaper folks.

[mdiemer]

An update: I updated Reaper today, and things are better. Among the woodwinds, only the clarinet is sticking. I have yet to test the brass. An observation: It almost seems that there is something about the clarinet patch that lends itself to this behavior. It has a lot of natural reverb, and the notes go on longer than for, say, the oboe. In fact, the same phrase, when played on the oboe, has the pauses between notes that result from the rests in between them. But with that phrase on the clarinet, it all runs together. I wonder if this could be the problem? Too much inherent legato?

[SysExJohn]

Have you, I wonder, tried altering note lengths within legato phrases?

As a matter of course I reduce note velocity levels considerably on the 2nd and subsequent notes within a phrase, and also reduce note lengths.

You may have noticed, if you use auto legato, that ARIA automatically reduces note lengths to zero.

I still suspect that Reaper is a fault here because it all works perfectly in Sonar, SQ01, Anvil Studio and MIDI Maestro, to name but a few.

The other thought that's just occurred to me is, what operating system are you on?
Windows 10?

[mdiemer]

Interesting observations, John. I do a lot of note length adjustment at times, in order to emphasize articulation. Perhaps with some Aria instruments I need to shorten them even more? Although, the sticking is only happening on the last note, which would seem to argue against that.

The latest: The Sam Trombone Solo Sustain patch is working. The Sam Horn Solo sustain is sticking.

I'm on W7 Pro 64 bit, with 16 GB ram.

I also think this is primarily a Reaper issue. I did submit a bug report. Hopefully it gets addressed. I can't believe I'm the only one using GPO/Aria in Reaper. If others are not having this problem, then this is really puzzling.

[SysExJohn]

Should have said adjusting note lengths using cc#21 or the release where the instrument has ADSR controls, cc#72.

This has an effect upon the release part of the note, so would be used for all notes within a phrase, i.e. first to penultimate. I tend to cut them to zero, except the last note.

[mdiemer]

John, I may be getting somewhere. Schwa, a Reaper developer, asked me to attach a midi file of one of my sonar files for export. After looking at it, he had this to say:

"Sure enough, this file has note-off represented as note-on with velocity zero.

Code:

+7920 7920: 90 54 7F
+240 8160: 90 54 00
+0 8160: 90 51 7F
+120 8280: 90 51 00

.. etc.

This is standard MIDI, though it is not common, somewhat archaic but totally legal. The problem appears to be simply that this specific VSTi is not handling it properly. Perhaps there is a setting in the VSTi to handle it? Or an export setting in Sonar to avoid it in the first place?

If all else fails, you could put a simple JS filter in the FX chain before the VSTi to convert the messages to actual note-offs. Perhaps a good samaritan here can offer up such a JS."

So, are we getting somewhere?

[SysExJohn]

Michael,
It sounds like some progress is being made.

I'm afraid the Reaper developer is completely, totally and utterly WRONG!
Note off messages created as note on, velocity zero, is the STANDARD way of doing things.
All Yamaha and all Roland keyboards and so many others work this way.

It seems crazy to me that they don't know this.
Just how ignorant can a developer be?
I wonder whether they have a copy of the MMA standards?

To be honest, I'm absolutely staggered by their lack of knowledge.

Here's a quotation from the MIDI specification:
"A receiver must be capable of recognizing either method of turning off a note, and should treat them identically."
It's called "running status" and allows a device to send two byte messages where a note off immediately follows a note on.

Wanders off into distance muttering away to himself ...

Kind regards,
John.

[mdiemer]

Yikes! I hope I'm not starting a flame war here. All this is miles above my head. I have yet to implement Schwa's fix. My first attempt didn't work. When I do, I'll let you know what the results are.

All in all, I'm very impressed with Reaper. Sonar was great, but they don't have a commitment to improving staff view, while Reaper has just implemented one, and I am confident they will be constantly improving it. Plus, Sonar keeps changing their pricing scheme, which is starting to look rather desperate to me, with the latest move being a lifetime update offer. Which looks too much like Windows 10 to me. I use Linux Ubuntu now except on my music rig. And Reaper is working now on making it Linux-native. So that's another reason I jumped. Maybe they do things differently as far as the code; as I said, that is so far beyond me as to be essentially magic. I'm sorry this has upset you, and I really appreciate your help, John.

[SysExJohn]

No, no flame war.
It hasn't upset me, not at all, I'm just absolutely staggered, gobsmacked, that they don't know this essential information from chapter one of the MIDI specification.

Reaper is a great program, and I'm mightily impressed with how far it's come in such a short while. Kudos to them all for the huge amount of time they've spent on it. It's a really good program.

But the MIDI side of it IS somewhat flakey, in my opinion.
Now I understand why.
They aren't working from a copy of the MIDI specification, it seems.

Note on, velocity zero as note off is pretty basic stuff. Fundamental stuff!
I mean really, REALLY basic.
Way before you get into Continuous Controllers and RPNs and NRPNs and Pitch Bend and System Exclusive and all that stuff.

Yea, the Cakewalk people do seem to be getting rattled.
I'm guessing that there's just so many people who would buy DAW software and the market is probably reaching saturation point.
I dare say that Reaper is starting to have a significant impact on the home user market place.
It's doubtful that you can reinvent the interface many times before people start walking.
I'm still at Sonar 7 PE, with no plans to upgrade, although I wish I'd bought 8.5 when it came out. Still 7 does all that I need.

Although for most of my sequencing I use an old Yamaha program called SQ01 upgraded with XGworks ST for the notation. It works a treat. The only thing it doesn't do is realise figured bass for me. But I haven't found a program yet that does that.

Regards,
John.

[mdiemer]

Thought I'd let you know John that the fix the Reaper folks gave me did not work. I'm going to purchase sonar Artist in the meantime, so I can finish the project I'm working on, a large orchestral piece. It's too hard learning a new DAW and trying to finish a piece I already started in Sonar. Then I can import the next one into Reaper and take it from there, hopefully with the Aria problem solved. Sonar 8.5 is not stable enough for my Vienna Sp Edition library, which is why I need the upgrade. 'Artist' makes sense because it's only 49.00, has xml for export, and I can use my plug-ins from 8.5, such as Dim Pro and some mastering tools.