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Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

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Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby DavidinTexas » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:49 pm

New to the forum and will appreciate any help that might be given.

I’ve tried many things and am still having an issue and am quite puzzled by it.

In the course of my efforts, I’ve discovered that with the ARIA Player, with either GPO or World Instruments, the same issue occurs regardless of the controller.

The issue being that in the ARIA Controls Window, when I move any of the controllers

- Mod Wheel on Alesis Q25,
- Mod “stick” on the Roland A-500S,
- Roland EV-5 Expression Pedal connected to the A-500S or the
- TEControl MIDI USB Breath Controller

the ModWhl (CC1) in the ARIA Controllers Window goes to 100% and then to 0%, but the instruments (I’ve tried many different ones) still sound when I play a key on the keyboard.
All these controllers will cause the volume to increase (I can see that in the Controls Window as well as hear it), but none of them will completely mute the sound.
The instrument sound is soft but definitely audible.
The same level is heard when recorded onto a track.

I have tried starting the recording and then moving all four of the controllers individually from 0% to 100% and then back to 0% before starting to play (as suggested in the manuals) and the same thing happens.

With Dimension Pro, Rapture, and the bass and strings plug-ins that come with Sonar X3 Pro the issue does not occur. The sounds are completely muted when any of the controllers is set to 0%.

I’ve tried settings for CC1, CC2, CC7 and CC11 with no change.

Could this be something that is inherent in the design of the ARIA Player or is there yet some setting of which I am unaware?

DavidinTexas
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby SysExJohn » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:20 am

Hi Davidintexas,

You don't mention which instrument you have loaded into the 'slot' you're playing.
For percussive sounds, e.g. piano, harpsichord and pizzicato strings, mod wheel (cc#1), breath (cc#2) and expression (cc#11) controllers have no effect anyway. Only note on velocity affects level, as well of course, as the overall channel volume (cc#7).

With legato capable instruments note on velocity just affects the 'attack' part of the envelope, and one of cc#1, cc#2 or cc#11 should be used to set expression level. cc#7 should be used to set overall maximum level for that instrument in the 'mix', and typically left unchanged.

After reading your post I tried what you've described and could replicate it using the flute in GPO4. But with the channel fader in the ARIA mixer window at zero (-oo dB) , no matter what the 'mod wheel' level in the control window, playing a note resulted in silence. (Even maximising the sound card's output way above normal levels I use).

But, as you say, with the mixer fader set up just a little way and with mod wheel at 0% results in a quiet sound. It must be something to do with the way the Plogue ARIA player works, or the interpretation of Garritan written sfz files.

Are you aware that Plogue is the company that created the ARIA player?
I wonder whether it's worth posing the question to David Viens over on the Plogue programming forum? Here: http://www.plogue.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=14.

Just a thought.
Regards,
John.
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby cz7575 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:52 am

DavidinTexas wrote:TEControl MIDI USB Breath Controller


Say what? I've been looking - unsuccessfully - to get a used Yamaha BC3 breath controller and now I find out by chance that there is a new company making an alternative!!!

I've googled and found this video



Can you confirm if it is as good as it looks in the video? Also, I see it can be bought direct from the manufacturer in Sweden, but I wonder if there are any dealers in the US?
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby DavidinTexas » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:17 pm

Thank you for the information SysExJohn. I'm glad you were able to replicate the issue. The instruments i've been using are various woodwinds and brass, flutes, oboe, french horn.
When i use any of the controllers on wind - brass instruments from the soft synths in Sonar, the volume always goes to 0%, even on the Garritan Orchestra in Dimension Pro so this seems to be something peculiar to the ARIA player. I had the same experience as you, when i set the volume fader in the channel mixer to 0%, there was no sound no matter how i changed any of the controllers but with a normal volume on the channel fader the non- 0% phenomenon occured. I will send an email to Plogue and see if they have any suggestions.

cz7575 , Regarding the TEControl USB MIDI Breath Controller http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-mi ... controller, it is a wonderful device!
As a first time BC user, having never used the Yamaha BC, i'm not able to compare them but this device works very well and according to the info on the TEC website they have improved on the design of the Yamaha. I don't know of any dealers in the U.S (as per an Internet Search). I purchased the BC directly from their website and received regular shipping and tracking updates and received the BC with no problems. (paid with PayPal). Also ordered the Breath Controller Headset http://www.tecontrol.se/products/breath ... er-headset and find it comfortable and very functional. I like the mouthpiece and also the bleed control is very nice. (The BC itself also has a bleed control so the Headset is optional). As a former (would be) saxophone player and a current singer and harmonica player, i find the USB BC very natural and comfortable to use, not only for volume / expression changes but also for adding a natural vibrato just as i do when singing. Here are several more reviews on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-U44kNtmI , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnCMnXxxous , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUJBW9w_MQo and there are more is you search for "TEControl MIDI Breath Controller" Also, TEC has now made a BC that has both USB and standard MIDI connections and will send data through both simultaneously.
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby cz7575 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:56 am

DavidinTexas wrote:cz7575 , Regarding the TEControl USB MIDI Breath Controller http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-mi ... controller, it is a wonderful device!


Hi David, many thanks for your feedback and I've just ordered one! Can't wait to get it!
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby DavidinTexas » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:08 pm

Hi cz7575, I'm very glad that you have found the TEC BC and i hope you enjoy using it as much as i do.

I'm still trying to figure out the issue with the controllers.
Waiting to hear back from Garritan Tech Support.
I'm curious about the .sfz files and am wondering if it might be something that has to do with the code itself. Have installed the .sfz editor and have just begun exploring.
Wish me luck!
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby SysExJohn » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:54 am

David,
You may experience problems with the sfz editor, I did.
Remember that ARIA has extensions beyond the sfz2 specification which it's unlikely that the editor supports.
Just use Notepad. It works just fine for me.
If you're really interested in getting into sfz programming try getting a copy of Simon Caan's book "Cakewalk Synthesisers" 2nd edition. Chapter 13 and the appendix will give you the most comprehensive explanation of how it all works.

Important: 2nd edition.

Regards,
John.
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby DavidinTexas » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:48 pm

Thank you John, i really appreciate your help.

I posted on the Plogue Forum and received this reply from Seb at Plogue:

Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%
Postby [email protected] » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:02 pm

It's specific to the programming of some of the Garritan instruments, CC1 is set up to respond to a curve where
0 is set up to not actually be 0.

The only way to change that is manually changing the corresponding .sfz file so that the 0 point is actually 0.
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Having encountered some problems using the .sfz editor, i've tried using Note Pad (and also Jarte Plus), have successfully opened several Garritan files and am really enjoying seeing all the different parts of the code.

This looks interesting and i'm wondering if it might be the issue.

<global>
pan_law=no_law
lovel=1 hivel=127
lokey=0 hikey=127
sustain_sw=$sustain_sw
group=0

Wondering if the lovel=1 is what is keeping the volume from going to 0.
Changed it to 0 and then saved the file as an .sfz to the same folder as the original
but when i open the Garritan ARIA Player i can't find the modified file in the instrument list. When i try to import it, all the keys are grayed out with evidently no samples assigned.

I have the first edition of the Cakewalk Synthesizers book and it does cover .sfz, at least an earlier version.

Having no experience with creating sampled instruments or any synth programming, i've done what i've always done, just jumped in and started trying things. Maybe i'll be compelled to actually read the "manual" for this one :-)

However, any thoughts or suggestions will be most appreciated.

David
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby SysExJohn » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:04 am

Hi David,

No, note on, velocity 0, is equivalent to MIDI note off. I'm reading the MMA MIDI specification.

Velocity, for a note on, is only 1 to 127. So one should, in theory, expect some extremely small volume level. Many/most devices/VSTi produce 0 with value 1.
Correct? A matter of conjecture.

I do a combination of reading the manual and jumping right in.
i.e. decide to experiment changing one value (read the appropriate section of the manual) jump in and change it.
Go back and start again! ;-)

I'm fairly sure (i.e. not completely certain) that the issue has something to do with the settings of ampeg or eg, which are amplitude envelope generator and envelope generator respectively.
Or possibly even amplitude velocity tracking, ampeg_veltrack.

Any help?
Regards,
John.
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Re: Instrument still sounds from keyboard when ModWhl = 0%

Postby DavidinTexas » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:45 pm

Thank you John,
I'm studying the code and will look for the settings that you have suggested.
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