MakeMusic
SmartMusic Finale Garritan MusicXML

ARIA as an individual file?

For solving technical issues involving installation, operation, bug reports and troubleshooting

ARIA as an individual file?

Postby sus4 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:59 pm

When I open a song in my DAW which is Logic Pro X, it takes a while. I see all the instruments loading one at a time. Isn't there a way of having ARIA associated with each individual song and when you open the song ARIA doesn't have to load each instrument, it's already there?
Sometimes I want to compare two arrangements and when I go back and forth I have to wait for each song to load all the instruments in ARIA.
Am I doing something wrong? I have a feeling I am.
Thanks.
  • 0

sus4
 
Posts: 73
Joined: January, 2014
Location: Boynton Beach, Fl.
Reputation: 0
Software Owned:
Sibelius 7, Logic Express 9, JABB3

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby Credo » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:04 pm

It sounds normal to me. Each project or song will load its own instances of the various plugins it needs.

It might be possible to run ARIA in stand alone mode instead of setting it up as a DAW plugin, and reroute MIDI to it as if it were an external instrument.

Credo
  • 0

Credo
 
Posts: 112
Joined: September, 2014
Reputation: 24
Software Owned:
Cubase 8.5; Sibelius 7.5; Finale 2014.5; Bidule;
Garritan Ultimate Collection, Halion 5, Halion Symphonic Orchestra, SONiVOX Film and Orchestra Companion

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby sus4 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:19 am

I timed the time to load 17 instruments and it took 3:20. That's a long time when your working on an arrangement. If I had an orchestra of say 50 instruments it could take close to 10:00 minutes. That's crazy.
Your idea of routing ARIA as a stand alone as MIDI is a good idea. How would I do that?
Thanks for your reply.
  • 0

sus4
 
Posts: 73
Joined: January, 2014
Location: Boynton Beach, Fl.
Reputation: 0
Software Owned:
Sibelius 7, Logic Express 9, JABB3

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby SysExJohn » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:18 am

Firstly, no there is no way of avoiding the load up time.
ARIA is a sample player and the Garritan samples are larger and of better quality than a normal sound card. Each set of samples (not untypically one sample per note) has to be moved from disk to memory.
The main barrier to fast loading is disk speed. Most disks are of 5400 rpm with a small amount of cache memory. Having a second disk, if possible, or replacing the main disk with one which works at 7200 rpm with a larger cache will speed matters up. Going to a 10,000 rpm disk or even to a solid state disk (SSD) will make a significant improvement.
(Credo may have tales to tell of which brands work and which don't.)
I run from a laptop with a second eSATA connection. The external HDD box has an eSATA interface. In it I run a second 2.5" 7200 rpm drive with the samples on it. It has speeded up loading times quite a bit.

Even running in stand alone mode it still requires load up.
Re-routing is done via an application like Maple MIDI.

Or ... you could use multiple internal MIDI 'ports' via Maple MIDI and route to one (or more) copies of the ARIA VST running inside VSTHost. It works fine on older versions of Windows, don't know about the latest or Macs.

regards,
John.
  • 0

Author of http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/ MIDI tutorials.
SysExJohn
 
Posts: 245
Joined: December, 2013
Location: Betelgeuse, shoulder of Orion.
Reputation: 21
Software Owned:
Sonar 7 PE, Finale 2012c, GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, World, CPO, Harps, Steinway Basic + GPO5.

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby Credo » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:06 am

sus4 wrote:I timed the time to load 17 instruments and it took 3:20. That's a long time when your working on an arrangement. If I had an orchestra of say 50 instruments it could take close to 10:00 minutes. That's crazy.
Your idea of routing ARIA as a stand alone as MIDI is a good idea. How would I do that?
Thanks for your reply.


I agree with SysexJohn on his tips for seeking faster loading times. Sometimes a hardware upgrade, or even a newer/faster platform really is the best option. When working with sampler software...fast drives and all the memory you can afford up to the max the machine will take is always a plus!

Now for the 'summary' of all my long winded banter further down in this post (if you have time for it):

I might be way off base, but Bidule (Also by Plogue, who does ARIA Player) might be worth grabbing the trial to see if it can do the sorts of things we're discussing here (hosting/managing different plugins outside the DAW as one 'big instrument'). http://www.plogue.com/products/bidule/

My understanding of Bidule is that it could be set up to host all the plugins you want in a stand-alone fashion that could then be treated as an 'external instrument' by your DAW.


Another approach might be to simply reform the way you think about managing, saving and opening projects. Consider whatever 'data subsets' your DAW is capable of exporting and importing. I.E. Can you drop a bunch of MIDI tracks into a folder in the DAW...and save 'just that folder' as a element of its own? Or is it really necessary to juggle 'entire projects' in and out of memory?

Consider just importing/exporting the performance aspects of your different projects into one big 'Master project' where different 'arrangements or ideas' can live in their own 'groups or folders' in the same DAW project. This way they all share the same general plugin setup (the part that's taking ages to load).

I.E.

1. Save all your projects that need similar instrumentation in their performance states...such as MIDI files or the native 'track and group' formats of your DAW.

2. Load your first primary project that has all of your ARIA instances and other sampler/synth stuff ready to go. Think of this is a 'master template'....the big hoss that takes way too long to load! Then just export/import the 'performance' data of different arrangements and ideas in and out of this project as needed.

3. Now 'import' just the performance data (MIDI files, or 'track' and 'group' exports of MIDI tracks) of your secondary project(s) 'into' the primary project. Organize it all in track folders (or whatever grouping structures Logic provides) in your DAW that can be muted and umuted, shown and hidden, etc...on the fly.

4. Every so often...hit save, rest your ears, have some coffee, and keep the entire project backed up and dated. This way if things grow too large and you need to get rid of some clutter in the Master Project just save the bits you're not using as tracks or groups or MIDI files etc, and clean them out of the project....you'll still have your 'big periodic Master templates' fully intact as well, should you need to go back to them...and those 'big Master Templates' also serve as a great starting point for the next 'working session'.

Performance data like MIDI tracks and controller lanes usually take very little space in a project....so don't be afraid to stack, hide/unhide, and otherwise manage several different 'arrangements' that you might be working on in one big 'master project'. Take advantage of the DAW's power to export and import various 'subsets' of project data.

In short exporting and importing just your performance data in and out of a Master Project template can cut down on some of the plugin loading times you're experiencing.


My Longwinded Logic on setting up a separate instrument management environment is as follows:

I hope I remember correctly...but I got the idea you're using Logic on a Mac? Sadly I'm not all that familiar with the way Macintosh manages MIDI ports and devices, and the modern world of Logic Pro is even less familiar to me. My DAW world is currently centered in the Windows PC realm, where VST is the plugin protocol that rules the roost. Does Logic use VST, or one of the other plugin types?

In the Windows based PC world, running a single instance of the stand alone Aria Player would usually lead to a couple of driver level MIDI ports showing up in my DAW. That host would also need direct access to at least a pair of audio stereo outputs. I could then link tracks in my DAW to that virtual MIDI port. If I wanted to make 'audio tracks' or other other audio renderings of the output of such hosts...I'd need to reroute those audio streams back into the DAW somehow. That might be easy or difficult, depending on your audio card, how many inputs and outputs it has, and the various internal and external solutions it provides for rerouting streams. In my case it would be fairly easy since my audio card has a pretty advanced mixing, monitoring, and rerouting matrix along with the drivers and apps to change that stuff on the fly. With only one instance of ARIA, I don't believe I would need any extra software or hacks to do this for my particular system, but yours might be quite different. Using more than a single stand alone instance of ARIA player on a single computer might prove more problematic for you.

To get more than 16 channels/instruments in a stand alone scenario using the included stand alone ARIA Player, you'd have to find a way to get multiple instances of the stand alone ARIA player to run and list their inputs and outputs separately at the streamer or driver level. I'm not sure if ARIA has flags to do this out of the box without sandboxing each instance through the OS somehow (I.E. making each instance look to the OS like it's running under a separate user account).

In theory, I could probably set up launchers that would start another session of the stand alone ARIA player sandboxed under a different 'user account'...but I've never dared to try such a thing. Plogue might also offer some undocumented start-up flags that would allow multiple instances of the stand alone player to run...but I have no idea what those might be if they exist.

With that in mind, if you're seeking a more 'load one set-up and use it with several different projects at the same time' scenario, then SysexJohn is on the mark with the possibility of experimenting with some sort of third party plugin host that can load up all the plugin instances you want, and reroute virtual MIDI ports, as well as Audio streams. It 'might' be the case that you already own another DAW (maybe some light version that came in a bundle with hardware, or whatever) that you could launch at the same time as Logic, just host your plugins, and then sync the two DAWs up somehow.

If Logic supports Rewire, and you want to try hosting your synths and sampler plugins externally, I highly recommend hunting a host that supports 'rewire', that way you can pull audio streams back into your DAW without as much 'physical patching' and fuss. Under that scenario, as long as you were using the same instruments across all your projects...you could just load it once and treat it all more like an external sampler or synth from the DAW and talk to them with MIDI from the DAW. Think of this sort of setup almost as if you'd installed all your synths and samplers on a seperate PC, and cabled them together via MIDI and audio patch cords. You'd just be doing it virtually in different chunks of PC memory on the same machine. Before spending hard earned cash on such software...I'd definitely want to be able to drive some demo versions and test it first!

So...the idea might be rather appealing to your style of project. I encourage trying it. Try Bidule, or other similar 'plugin hosting' applications. It may be exactly what you're looking for :)

Credo
  • 0

Credo
 
Posts: 112
Joined: September, 2014
Reputation: 24
Software Owned:
Cubase 8.5; Sibelius 7.5; Finale 2014.5; Bidule;
Garritan Ultimate Collection, Halion 5, Halion Symphonic Orchestra, SONiVOX Film and Orchestra Companion

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby sus4 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:42 pm

Well guys, reading everything you posted I think the MIDI route is not for me. I'm not a novice, but I'm certainly not in your league. Your suggestion about installing an SSD hard drive I like. I've been doing research on it and I can handle that because I'm pretty handy. Reading on the Mac How To Website they are suggesting using a partial SSD drive considering what the cost of a new one is and it still gives you the speed. I'm now using a Mac Mini computer with one Terrabite hard drive and 16 GB of ram which is the maximum for my computer. It's not slow, it only feels flow when I'm loading ARIA into one of my arrangements.
I very much appreciated the input form both of you and Credo your "Thesis" is excellent.
I'm going to continue researching the SSD, and if you have any other thoughts or suggestions please feel free to post.
Thanks again.

Sus4
  • 0

sus4
 
Posts: 73
Joined: January, 2014
Location: Boynton Beach, Fl.
Reputation: 0
Software Owned:
Sibelius 7, Logic Express 9, JABB3

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby Credo » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:50 pm

sus4 wrote:Well guys, reading everything you posted I think the MIDI route is not for me. I'm not a novice, but I'm certainly not in your league. Your suggestion about installing an SSD hard drive I like. I've been doing research on it and I can handle that because I'm pretty handy. Reading on the Mac How To Website they are suggesting using a partial SSD drive considering what the cost of a new one is and it still gives you the speed. I'm now using a Mac Mini computer with one Terrabite hard drive and 16 GB of ram which is the maximum for my computer. It's not slow, it only feels flow when I'm loading ARIA into one of my arrangements.
I very much appreciated the input form both of you and Credo your "Thesis" is excellent.
I'm going to continue researching the SSD, and if you have any other thoughts or suggestions please feel free to post.
Thanks again.

Sus4


With 16gig to work with...you've probably got plenty of RAM to spare...so one other thing I can think of you might try if the hard drive upgrade doesn't satisfy is a simple ram drive.

In this scenario, you could build a ram drive that holds your most commonly used aria sounds (sfz files and relative samples). Before starting your DAW, you'd just launch the RAM DRIVE which would image itself and all its contents into RAM. It would take some time to image this into RAM, but from there it would be blazing fast (compared to any hard drive or SSD you could add).

For this to work, you'd only need to load your sounds through a sort of sub-library that ARIA will build for itself anytime you use 'load' and search out out an sfz file through the OS file selector. That first time you bring in patches from an alternate location, you have to click 'load' (instead of choosing an instrument/patch through the drop down Garritan Library menus) and tell Aria where the patch is located (in this case it would be on your ram drive), but after that it adds a 'user' category to its drop down menu catalogs, and keeps track of your 'user library' for you.

If something like that seems helpful, and your hardware upgrade isn't quite cutting it...feel free to pop in ask how one might go about building such a RAM DRIVE.

It would NOT be ideal for working with the entirety of really large sample libraries...but for a smaller group of bread and butter sounds that you find yourself constantly working with...it could be planned out in a way that should speed things up quite a bit and prove to be helpful enough at the cost of a GIG or two of RAM. With Garritan Libraries...you could get quite a lot to fit in just a couple gig of RAM...might be well worth the tradeoff.

A good RAM DISK can be loaded and unloaded easily, and even set-up to load at boot and stay resident through 'warm restarts' if desired.

Credo
  • 0

Credo
 
Posts: 112
Joined: September, 2014
Reputation: 24
Software Owned:
Cubase 8.5; Sibelius 7.5; Finale 2014.5; Bidule;
Garritan Ultimate Collection, Halion 5, Halion Symphonic Orchestra, SONiVOX Film and Orchestra Companion

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby SysExJohn » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:09 am

Maybe some kind of hybrid drive incorporating both elements of SSD and conventional drive might be the answer. Perhaps that's what you're thinking already.

I understand that Toshiba has some reasonable cost versions.
I've had a few Toshiba micro drives in the past and they performed well, just to add a bit of personal experience.

This was one way I used to use multiple copies of ARIA VST's inside VSThost.

Image

This was for providing an orchestral accompaniment for my wife (operatic mezzo) for performance. Each copy of ARIA is driven by a separate internal MIDI port (via Maple MIDI). I could pre-load each with instruments for a performance, then swap to a different set for the next song whilst reloading others.

In this case the output was just a stereo pair.
I don't know if there's anything similar for a Mac.

John.
  • 1

Author of http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/ MIDI tutorials.
SysExJohn
 
Posts: 245
Joined: December, 2013
Location: Betelgeuse, shoulder of Orion.
Reputation: 21
Software Owned:
Sonar 7 PE, Finale 2012c, GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, World, CPO, Harps, Steinway Basic + GPO5.

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby sus4 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:39 am

SysExJohn,

Not yet sure what to do, but it seems I'm leaning towards a new SSD. I also like the idea of a Ram Disk, but what I don't like about that is if you turn of your computer you have to reload the Ram Disk. The illustration you posted looks confusing to me although it sounds like a good idea.
Spoke to my son and he thinks I should go with the SSD. He has a unit, forgot what it's called, that can transfer everything from my HD in my Mac Mini to the new SSD. So, that would be a positive factor.

I just noticed something. I open ARIA and watched it load my instruments and it didn't take that long. I then open Logic Pro X, my DAW, and went to an arrangement that I'm working on and it took much longer to load the instruments there. Does this mean anything significant?

sus4
  • 0

sus4
 
Posts: 73
Joined: January, 2014
Location: Boynton Beach, Fl.
Reputation: 0
Software Owned:
Sibelius 7, Logic Express 9, JABB3

Re: ARIA as an individual file?

Postby SysExJohn » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:54 am

Hmm! Not sure VSThost works in a Mac, so ignore it.
SSD's tend to be expensive for a reasonable capacity, but if you do decide to go this way, take a look at SSD's by Crucial. Some of the latest one's from them got a good review in Tom's hardware not long back. Otherwise take a look at the newest hybrid disks which offer a compromise between SSD and ordinary hard disk, giving a higher capacity for a not too high outlay.

Interesting results. In my system they tend to load slower in standalone ARIA than in VST mode.
I frequently use several programs for creating mock ups. Sonar 7, MIDI Maestro, SQ01 (from Yamaha) and the stand alone ARIA. All the programs load the samples into VST ARIA more quickly than the stand alone version.

I wonder what Logic is doing?
Weird, or what?

Oh! And you can drop the SysEx if you like. It was something I got lumbered with many years ago in the days of synthesizers and hardware sound modules. It's because I began my career in computers back in '66 and tend to work naturally in binary, octal and hex, and used to concoct MIDI system exclusive messages with relative ease for others.

John.
  • 0

Author of http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/ MIDI tutorials.
SysExJohn
 
Posts: 245
Joined: December, 2013
Location: Betelgeuse, shoulder of Orion.
Reputation: 21
Software Owned:
Sonar 7 PE, Finale 2012c, GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, World, CPO, Harps, Steinway Basic + GPO5.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron