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GPO4 & Program Change Messages

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GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby Dan Clark » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:11 pm

Hi. I'm very much an newb with GPO. I'm trying to understand how GPO works. It appears that GPO only works with MIDI channels and does not use GM Program Change Messages. For example, if another tool (like a DAW) sends GPO a Program Change Message #1 on Channel 2, GPO will play whatever instrument is selected for Channel 2 regardless of Program Change Message. Is this correct? Or am I missing something?

Thanks,

Dan.

p.s. I'm also a newb with MIDI, so please feel free to correct my terminology.
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Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby rbowser » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:20 pm

Dan Clark wrote:Hi. I'm very much an newb with GPO. I'm trying to understand how GPO works. It appears that GPO only works with MIDI channels and does not use GM Program Change Messages. For example, if another tool (like a DAW) sends GPO a Program Change Message #1 on Channel 2, GPO will play whatever instrument is selected for Channel 2 regardless of Program Change Message. Is this correct? Or am I missing something?

Thanks,

Dan.

p.s. I'm also a newb with MIDI, so please feel free to correct my terminology.


What you described is perfectly clear, Dan. And that's exactly right - ARIA doesn't respond to Program Changes. No sample player built like ARIA does.

Synths don't use audio samples for their sounds. The "patches" are extremely tiny little bits of data that just reconfigure the parameters of a given synth to become a different sound.

But a sample playback engine like ARIA is playing audio samples of real instruments which have been assembled to become software instruments. Many samples are used for each patch in GPO, or any other Garritan instrument. When you load an instrument in ARIA, you ca see the samples being loaded - It doesn't take long, but they all have to be loaded before you can start playing the instrument.

Imagine what would happen if Program Changes did work in ARIA - Every time you sent it a PG, it would have to dump the current pool of samples, and whirl through loading all the samples needed for the instrument you want to change to. In short - that would be impossible. Program Changes can be sent just a split second before their needed - not enough time it takes to load a Garritan instrument.

So, just forget about PGs when working with ARIA and Garritan instruments. What you said is exactly right. You load an instrument in ARIA, assign it to a MIDI channel - That's the instrument now permanently assigned to that channel for the duration of the project.

But remember you can load as many separate instances of ARIA as your computer can handle - meaning you can have 2, 3, 4 or more ARIAs in a given project, and they each have their own discrete set of 16 MIDI channels. If you really want a particular line in a project to suddenly be played by a different instrument, you just move that portion of the track to the appropriate track - And that's the way arranging music works anyway.

Randy
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Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
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Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby rbowser » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:27 am

Here's more information for you, Dan, and everyone else learning about GPO.

Keyswitches:

Some Garritan instruments are available as Keyswitched instruments. Those give the user instant access to different articulations, and using the keyswitches is akin to old-school "program changes."

If you haven't investigated this, load, for instance, "Violins 1 KS." Look at the keyboard in the ARIA interface. The red notes are the Keyswitch notes. They are below the playable range of the instrument, so when you play those notes, you don't get sound - Instead, you get different articulations for the violin section. They begin on the second C below the lowest C the violins can play:

--C=Sus+Short - That's the default patch, and is the one you'll probably use the most. Depending on how long notes are played, you will have either short notes with a stronger attack, or longer notes appropriate for legato.

--C#=Sus+Short Mutes

--D=Auto Alternate

--D#=Upbows

--E=Downbows

--F=Pizzicato

--F#=Tremolo mutes

--G=Tremolo

--G#=1/2 step trills mutes

--A=1/2 step trills

--A#=Whole step trills mutes

--B=Whole step trills

The way it works is that when you load a KS patch like that, the samples for all these different articulations are loaded into that one ARIA slot. That makes all the audio samples loaded and ready for playing. Those keyswitch notes engage the different pools of samples and ARIA doesn't have to load them into memory, because they were already loaded when you called up that particular patch. That makes it possible for ARIA to instantly switch articulations at a moment's notice.

So, keyswitches work much like Program Changes.

Randy
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Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
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Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby tomotello » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:21 am

... coming back to the program change question:
That means, if I want to use Aria Player for playing GM-Midi files, the approach would then be:

- start 8 instances of Aria player (8 times 16 slots to get the 128 banks)
- assign the 128 GM instruments to the different Aria player instances/slots
- create a map with Bome's MIDI Translator (http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator ) which reroutes incoming MIDI program change messages to the corresponding "Aria cluster" slot

I've started once such an approach already with Kontakt 4 and 5 where for different Keyswitch- articulations bank messages where mapped to keyswitch messages.
... but I gave up because of the incredible long load time for the initial load with Kontakt.

It seems the load times with Aria are much faster, so it could be worth to reimplement this approach for Aria Player/Instant Orchestra to get it working as GM Player.

Any concerns about that? ;)
If not I would start and share the result.
Thomas
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Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby SysExJohn » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:27 am

Much easier and far lower CPU/RAM loading etc. is simply to look at the tracks / channels in the MIDI file and substitute the required instrument with the GPO (or JABB, COMB, IO) equivalent into the appropriate ARIA slot. I do that quite a lot for commercial backing tracks I occasionally need to use.

Of course there's no direct equivalent for Strings 1 and Strings 2 (which cover the entire string range from violins to contrabass), nor the synthesisers and most 'ethnic' instruments, unless you have 'World' too.

My own approach, on the odd occasion I need to, is to combine GPO/COMB/JABB sounds with those from a good VST Sound Font player (and sample set) which responds correctly to Program Change.

Just some random thoughts.
Regards,
John.
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Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby rbowser » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:32 am

This concept of wanting to use ARIA and Garritan Libraries for playing General MIDI files is new to me. I don't recall much if any discussion on the topic over the 8 years I've been online discussing Garritan. I'm not sure if I'm understanding why this would be attempted--? - Is it just to playback orchestral GM files found online, only using Garritan instead of the GM sound modules built for that sort of thing? It's kind of an ARIA-as-classical-Jukebox concept? And these complex ideas for making it work - this is because the desire is for these files to playback in real time, right?

SysExJohn wrote:Much easier and far lower CPU/RAM loading etc. is simply to look at the tracks / channels in the MIDI file and substitute the required instrument with the GPO (or JABB, COMB, IO) equivalent into the appropriate ARIA slot...


Yes, that seems like the only logical approach to me. That process would be the same as when composing music with Garritan, only in reverse - We choose the instruments we want to use in a piece, load them, and proceed. With this GM idea, the tracks are already recorded, so the instruments that were used would just need to be chosen.

Old school tracks that you would find with program changes over the course of a single track's playback - that would have to be dealt with, just as you're saying in your posts, Thomas. Without setting up this MIDI Translator to re-interpret the changes, you would need to make copies of such tracks, and route the copies to appropriate ARIA slots, erasing data not meant for that new instrument - Hmm.

This reminds me of a really negative review of the Garritan Ultimate Collection at Amazon. A couple of us have tried to post correctives to that post - I invite others to do the same - because the review was written by someone who didn't know what they were talking about. That user also wanted to use ARIA/Garritan as a GM module - I think it was in his review that I heard of that idea for the first time. He said that buying the collection was "a complete waste of money" (that's in the subject line - grooooan)--because ARIA can "only" play 16 instruments at a time, so he wasn't able to have all of his GM MIDI tracks playback. Obviously he's trying to do it all in the Standalone ARIA - doesn't know about recording programs, doesn't understand what ARIA is for - etc -

Anyway - Interesting thread, even though I still scratch my head over the "ARIA as GM module" idea.

Randy
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Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby SysExJohn » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:15 am

rbowser wrote:This concept of wanting to use ARIA and Garritan Libraries for playing General MIDI files is new to me. I don't recall much if any discussion on the topic over the 8 years I've been online discussing Garritan. I'm not sure if I'm understanding why this would be attempted--? - Is it just to playback orchestral GM files found online, only using Garritan instead of the GM sound modules built for that sort of thing? It's kind of an ARIA-as-classical-Jukebox concept? And these complex ideas for making it work - this is because the desire is for these files to playback in real time, right?


My own use, Randy, is primarily to create rehearsal/performance tracks for my wife to sing to (as you may recall). Not having a 'proper' musical education myself (I came to GPO et al late in life) and not infrequently having very short deadlines I do occasionally resort to a purchased professional MIDI file. Recent examples have been Broadway show tunes.

The desire is to get a better rendering of the track than can be achieved by using GM sound libraries alone. So the start is from a commercial MIDI track with much further tweaking to get the dynamics etc. sounding correct.

In general I think more people are learning that there are better sounds to be had from specialist instrument libraries, without understanding that considerably more work has to be applied to the sequence to get the most from them. They simply do not understand that the range of articulations far exceeds what is defined by GM. Nor do they understand that the samples are not all just sitting there waiting to be invoked, but have to be pre-loaded.

I shall visit the Amazon site, if I can, and add a comment too.

All the best,
John.
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Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby rbowser » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:48 am

SysExJohn wrote:...My own use, Randy, is primarily to create rehearsal/performance tracks for my wife to sing to (as you may recall)...I do occasionally resort to a purchased professional MIDI file. Recent examples have been Broadway show tunes.

The desire is to get a better rendering of the track than can be achieved by using GM sound libraries alone. So the start is from a commercial MIDI track with much further tweaking to get the dynamics etc. sounding correct.

In general I think more people are learning that there are better sounds to be had from specialist instrument libraries, without understanding that considerably more work has to be applied to the sequence to get the most from them...


Thanks for the informative post, John - Of course I remember how you produce tracks for your talented wife. I've always admired that work you do for her. And even though I know you've told me before how you start with already recorded MIDI tracks, I really hadn't thought through what the process would be to use them. I have the picture now - thanks for explaining.

Dan, is this the sort of thing you're doing also, and that's why you want to adapt GM files for GPO use?

"...Recent examples have been Broadway show tunes..." -- ! -- I do know that MIDI files of Broadway songs are rather readily available now, but it's surprising, because they're all illegal. -- I have a long involved story that would be far too long to post here. It covers a number of years, and is basically the story of me finding out how serious the New York music publishers can be about protecting the copyrights of their clients.

Knowing that using MIDI is a practical solution for many little theatre companies in the country, and that MIDI musicians have manufactured canned tracks for many years now, Music Theatre International (MTI) developed their own virtual orchestra system, "OrchEXTRA," which is a self-contained MIDI system with orchestral samples, scores for quite a few shows available, and a sophisticated playback system that provides real-time tempo playback. The operator taps a computer key, I think it's the spacebar, to advance the file at any tempo they want, with complete control over rubato. It's very slick.

Getting OrchEXTRA established involved new clauses in the contracts with composers, allowing for this particular use of a retrieval system which is otherwise still contrary to copyright laws for 3rd parties to do. The publishers don't really want to seek out copyright offenders and enforce penalties, but their legal departments do come down very hard when they have to.

We all know that it's a much more complicated age we live in, compared to even just ten years ago. Our understanding of copyright and attitudes are in flux - who knows what will eventually emerge?

Some time back, I wrote several messages to one of these companies illegally providing MIDI tracks of Broadway shows. I was trying to find out how they managed to be so visible online and not be prosecuted - They ignored my inquiries. Who knows - Maybe they've got a secret deal going with publishers, slipping them cash to avoid legal proceedings.

In any case! - I am positive you're right, John, in the last part of your post where you comment on average users not understanding what all is involved when trying to use GM MIDI files with more sophisticated sound sources like Garritan. It's like that misinformed buyer at Amazon who apparently expected to get the Garritan collection and then just run his purchased or purloined MIDI tracks through, expecting it to be instantly great - His main problem though, as I said earlier, is that he thought he was ripped off because ARIA can "only" play 16 instruments at once.-- It would be Very good if you could add another corrective post to that stupid review at Amazon.

Randy
  • 0

Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby SysExJohn » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:01 am

rbowser wrote:Thanks for the informative post, John - Of course I remember how you produce tracks for your talented wife. I've always admired that work you do for her. And even though I know you've told me before how you start with already recorded MIDI tracks, I really hadn't thought through what the process would be to use them. I have the picture now - thanks for explaining.


Just to clarify, most of what I do is notate from scores obtained via IMSLP (i.e. out of copyright) where, most frequently, no MIDI file is available, and even if it is it's been designed for GM playback.
Nowadays I use Finale 2012 to create the SMF.
Then it's into Sonar 7 to make it good (although I'm finding the Human Playback (HP) controls in Finale provide some excellent sounding files). It's currently more effort for me in Finale, but I'm pretty sure that's just me climbing a rather steep learning curve.

"...Recent examples have been Broadway show tunes..." -- ! -- I do know that MIDI files of Broadway songs are rather readily available now, but it's surprising, because they're all illegal. -- I have a long involved story that would be far too long to post here. It covers a number of years, and is basically the story of me finding out how serious the New York music publishers can be about protecting the copyrights of their clients.


As we're not putting on complete productions, more of a cabaret with songs from various sources, usually with several performers, the licensing is much simpler. We work with the organisation hosting the event who will usually already hold a PRS (performing rights society) licence. So performance copyright is covered.

As to the commercial making of MIDI files, I found that some of these companies do have an MCPS licence (the ones I deal with anyway), including an annual licence fee. That permits them to create a mechanical copy of a work. Much like a singer recording a cover version of a song. However, mechanical copyright isn't the same as performance rights, as I'm sure you're already well aware. They can give you permission to use their MIDI recording for performance having purchased the track from them, but to perform, one needs to have a PRS licence. This applies to the UK.

I imagine your experience, Randy, is much more to do with putting on a complete show, and I suspect the composer/songwriter can withhold rights whilst there are ongoing opportunities for him/her to stage performances. I suspect too that the way copyright is managed is different from the UK.

In Germany, where I lived until recently, a performer would fill in a performed song list and submit it to GEMA together with the appropriate licence fees applicable. This is not possible in the UK for some reason. I'm currently treading the copyright minefield in the UK. A friend in Australia busks from time to time in shopping malls. All he has to do is buy a very low cost licence from the local council offices!

Knowing that using MIDI is a practical solution for many little theatre companies in the country, and that MIDI musicians have manufactured canned tracks for many years now, Music Theatre International (MTI) developed their own virtual orchestra system, "OrchEXTRA," which is a self-contained MIDI system with orchestral samples, scores for quite a few shows available, and a sophisticated playback system that provides real-time tempo playback. The operator taps a computer key, I think it's the spacebar, to advance the file at any tempo they want, with complete control over rubato. It's very slick.


There are a couple of other programs designed to do this, which I won't mention on this forum for obvious reasons. But they don't come with any shows, merely the ability to run a show with a MIDI file (and in one case notate as well), and offer a fair degree of performance control.

Some time back, I wrote several messages to one of these companies illegally providing MIDI tracks of Broadway shows. I was trying to find out how they managed to be so visible online and not be prosecuted - They ignored my inquiries. Who knows - Maybe they've got a secret deal going with publishers, slipping them cash to avoid legal proceedings.


See my comments above about MCPS and PRS in the UK.

In any case! - I am positive you're right, John, in the last part of your post where you comment on average users not understanding what all is involved when trying to use GM MIDI files with more sophisticated sound sources like Garritan. It's like that misinformed buyer at Amazon who apparently expected to get the Garritan collection and then just run his purchased or purloined MIDI tracks through, expecting it to be instantly great - His main problem though, as I said earlier, is that he thought he was ripped off because ARIA can "only" play 16 instruments at once.-- It would be Very good if you could add another corrective post to that stupid review at Amazon.

Randy


It really is another learning curve using e.g. ARIA (and other similarly hosted sample libraries) for those whose experience is GM and a complete pre-loaded set of 128 instruments or even more a sound card or sound module (as opposed to an audio only card) invoked by MIDI Program Change messages.

Just some random thoughts.
Regards,
John.
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SysExJohn
 
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Re: GPO4 & Program Change Messages

Postby rbowser » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:29 am

Good morning, John - Thanks for your detailed post which, as always from your "pen," is very illuminating.

I think I may have to ask for your pardon, going off as long as I did yesterday about the issue of MIDI files of copyrighted Broadway songs. Over the years, when I see a post which mentions the subject, even in passing, I tend to "go on a toot," because it brings up my memories of dealing with publishers over this some years ago.

In any case, all that section of my reply was off-topic from the main topic of this thread, which is to use Garritan instruments in this creative "substitute for GM module" way I hadn't thought much about before.

Now that I've looked at online info about MCPS (Mechanical-Copyright Protection Society) and PRS (The Performing Right Society) I see their purview is only Britain. I had never heard of either of them, and am not aware of anything analogous in The States. My post was only about what I know of how things are on this side of the pond. I wish we Did have some legal way of securing licenses for doing MIDI versions of copyrighted material! But here, composers/songwriters are still granted the standard copyright clause that their work cannot be used in any kind of retrieval system. That's why not only MIDI versions of their works aren't allowed, but video recordings of performances of their works aren't allowed either.

SysExJohn wrote:...A friend in Australia busks from time to time in shopping malls. All he has to do is buy a very low cost licence from the local council offices!...


And, as you point out in your post, performance rights and mechanical rights are two distinctly different things. Rights to do a live performance of a single song can of course be secured here, but I don't think at as low a cost as in Britain, and not secured as conveniently as you describe.

In connection with "OrchEXTRA," the leading MIDI playback system for Broadway shows here, you said:

SysExJohn wrote:...There are a couple of other programs designed to do this...But they don't come with any shows, merely the ability to run a show with a MIDI file...


Right - programs for using MIDI live, with the ability to vary the tempo playback. There have been a number of programs like that for some time. But "OrchEXTRA" is what Music Theatre International developed in direct response to unauthorized MIDI versions of their properties, and so that one is legal and sanctioned, while the generic live playback kind of program isn't, since those involve coming up with MIDI files which aren't supposed to be made. Other major publishers without that kind of program available still warn people that their shows must be performed either by a pianist, or at least a small band - no mechanical version is available or allowed.

Something tricky is that the major publishers of Broadway music here in The States don't handle the rights for individual songs. I'm not sure how people go about getting those rights - I've never tried to. I suppose they probably need to go through ASCAP or BMI, the performance rights organizations for composers (one of which I belong to.)

So, you're right - as indicated in your post, these things are handled differently in the UK and The States. From what I understand of your post, I'm wishing we were more like the UK!-- (in yet another way!---ahem-cough--health care...)

Randy
  • 0

Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

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