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Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

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Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby Michael.B » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:30 am

The Garritan Aria Player does include some convolution reverb and, through it's excellent mixer, varying amounts can be 'sent' individually to the Slots/channels in Aria. From this, excellent results can be achieved at no extra cost.

However, for years now, arguably the choice of professionals and enthusiasts has been Altiverb with its large selection of 'Real' rooms and halls and it's speaker placement set on a grid. There are other ambience products that use IRs of 'real spaces' or real rooms and halls but Altiverb, arguably, has remained the world leader but is this all about to change?

Using Garritan libraries extensively in both Finale and Sonar,I bought my copy of Altiverb, Version 6, in 2008 and looked forward to the promised new 64 bit version. My 32 bit version will not work fully in Sonar 64 bit despite some claims that this 'Bridge' and that 'Bridge' will run it. There may be some functionality but, as I, and many others have discovered, it simply doesn't function properly if at all. To use multiple instances of my beloved Altiverb without constant crashes, freezes and drop-outs I have to run Sonar in 32 bit.

Eventually, Altiverb 7, was released in November 2011. Apart from being 64 bit, Audioease gave their flagship product a total make-over and redesign. The problem was, and still is, that this latest incarnation currently is for the Mac only. At the time of release of the new Altiverb 7, Audioease promised that a Windows version would soon follow. Now, over two years later, nothing, zilch, zero. The frustration and anger vented in the Audioease forums says more than I could indicate here.

Some people tried to give up the waiting .. and the waiting .. and the waiting to look elswhere for their ambience tool. The problem was that, for me and and for multitudes, there was nothing to equal, let alone beat, the wondrous and mighty Altiverb. We had to put up with the delays by Audioease, for whatever reason, .. Until now!

I have recently become aware of the new Vienna Multiple Impulse Responses (MIR) that has appeared on the World stage and does appear to be a very serious competitor. It does include some of the same halls as Altiverb (my favourites actually). Although, on the face of it, Altiverb does have more rooms and halls, Vienna MIR works differently and uses thousands of Impulse Responses (IRs) for each room or hall; hence the name, 'Vienna MIR' (Multiple Impulse Responses). Also, Vienna MIR is 64bit.

Furthermore, for me, another added interest is the virtual stage and virtual auditorium. We can move and place instruments visually into positions on stage just as a living orchestra would be. We can then select 'seats' in the 'auditorium' and the Vienna MIR does the rest. Apparently, from independent reports I have read, the resulting sound has to be heard to be believed and is incredibly professional.

..... aaannnd there is a demo so we can try it and hear it for ourselves!

So this sounds truly very promising .. until .. well first of all to try the demo we have to buy a 'dongle' (Vienna Key) if we don't already have one or an alternative that's 'suitable'. A 'Vienna Key' costs €24, £20, $32.

Next .. well .. the sheer cost. The full version of Vienna MIR is €645, £529, $870. There is a 24 track version available for €265, £242, $357. Neither of these include any 'Rooms'; a Room Pack is another €195, £160, $263. There are four Room Packs available to select from. So, total cost to get started is: Full Version (including 'National Tax'): €864, £709, $1165. 24 Track Version (including 'National Tax'): €484, £422, $652

On top of this, the minimum computer requirements need an i7 processor with 32 Gb RAM (16Gb for the 24 Tracks version) and Windows 7. For many people this could mean an upgrade or even a new computer.

Still, the end results are reported to be staggering and it does look a joy to use with its virtual stage and auditorium placement. By comparison, Altiverb 7, plus the required dongle, is priced at €628, £516, $847 including tax and including the set of IRs.

So, at loooonnng last, cost apart, there is a real alternative to Altiverb for mixing my Garritan libraries. When I have upgraded my computer I shall try that Demo version of the Vienna MIR and if it is as good as it seems then it looks like that could well become, after some saving, my ambience tool of choice.

I'll come back to this post and update it with the latest news when that great event happens.

In the meantime, if anyone already has the Vienna MIR, I would very interested to read your review particularly if you are using this with any of the Garritan libraries. I would also be interested in the thoughts of anyone who is interested in this topic

Thanks.
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Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby rbowser » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:40 pm

Michael.B wrote:...I'll come back to this post and update it with the latest news when that great event happens...

I'll look forward to that report, Michael. I'm sure the Vienna program will be fantastic, but it's so completely out of the realm of what I laughingly refer to as my "budget," that I'll have to just hear about if from the sidelines.

These more sophisticated impulse response programs are, I think, absurdly expensive, but will become just standard within the next few years. And at that point, they'll be within the grasp of the more average user.

Randy
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Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby Michael.B » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:47 am

Hello Randy,

Thanks for calling by and yes, that pricing is almost prohibitive. I'm still going to try the demo and it's going to have to be superlative, extraordinary to prompt me to start saving for this product.

I'm looking forward to posting my views on it. :|
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Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby rbowser » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:00 am

Michael.B wrote:...I'm looking forward to posting my views on it. :|

And I'm looking forward to reading them!

Randy
  • 0

Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby RichardK » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:25 pm

Hi Guys,
Interesting discussion to me. There are a wealth of PC-based reverbs out there now besides Altiverb, which I frankly gave up on. Actually I always thought it put a little haze on the sound I never liked that much. Anyway, I use East West Quantum Leap Spaces convolution reverb now and am quite happy with it. Not cheap, but not MIR priced either (especially if you wait for one of East/West's sales). There may not be that many IRs for it compared to Altiverb, but how many rooms do you really need - especially the special rooms like playing in the shower, etc. It's also simple to use and seems pretty efficient.

Also, though maybe not exactly convolution, C2Audio have some excellent reverbs for a modest price, for example Breeze - which is very efficient and can be loaded on as many inserts as you like (assuming you have a relatively new computer). They have higher end Aether and the Flagship B2 products as well that are very good with many rooms and instrument options.

I've been using all these with Garritan products lately.

I'm sure there are others out there too. I'm toying with MIR myself - when I feel my virtual performance technique merits it.

Rich
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Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby SysExJohn » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:35 pm

How many, I wonder, have tried the very well reviewed SIR2?

Mike Senior of Sound on Sound magazine certainly seemed to like it when he reviewed it briefly back in August '08. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug08/articles/pif_0808.htm

Image

As far as I can see it's quite lot cheaper than other commercial products and looks very configurable.

Regards,
John.
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Author of http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/ MIDI tutorials.
SysExJohn
 
Posts: 245
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Software Owned:
Sonar 7 PE, Finale 2012c, GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, World, CPO, Harps, Steinway Basic + GPO5.

Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby rbowser » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:50 pm

Excellent, John - Thanks for bringing up this alternative to the big budget IR plugins.

AND - get this - I got the first version of S.I.R many years ago, and a large collection of IRs along with it, all for free.

I could not believe my eyes just now when I discovered that S.I.R. 1 is STILL available for free!-- Here's its interface - Click the image to go to the website with info and the download link:

Image

IMPORTANT CAVEAT - I'm not sure what the problem was, but when I recently decided to use S.I.R. 1 in a project, Sonar crashed - It was the first time I'd tried the plugin in well over a year. Undeterred, I still used IRs from the huge collection I got with S.I.R., and simply opened them in the free Reverberate plugin.

So, I can't promise that S.I.R. 1 will work on your computer, but you could give it a try. It used to be all I ever used.

Randy
  • 0

Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby rbowser » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:22 pm

FOLLOW UP TO S.I.R 1 info:

Thinking of S.I.R again inspired me to run a test after putting up my last post. I could see at the S.I.R site that there's a new version available than what I got way back in ->gulp< 2005 - ! That was SIR_1010. Just now I downloaded SIR_1011 and replaced the old .dll file in my Sonar VST folder.

After I had Sonar scan the plugin folder to pick up on the new version of S.I.R., I tried it out in a scratch project. It looks like whatever the issue was between the older version and Windows 7 has been fixed. To be precise:

--S.I.R. 1 worked fine in my 32 bit Sonar. The site says it's not compatible with 64 bits, so that's one caveat.

--When I moved the Dry/Wet sliders in S.I.R.'s gui while the project was playing back - Sonar did crash. BUT, I re-opened Sonar and the project, and after numerous tests, am satisfied that Sonar doesn't crash with S.I.R. as long as the user doesn't try moving the plugin's controls during playback. Stop - make an adjustment, play again to hear the results. That can be lived with.

SO - If you ever still work in a 32 bit version of your recording program, you should try this out. It's totally free, has a ton of free impulse responses - the results sound as good to me as most anything else.

Randy
  • 0

Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby SysExJohn » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:33 am

Thanks Randy,

It's very helpful to have your views on SIR.
Yes, the original SIR is still available amazingly for FREE with loads of IR files.

SIR2 seems to go further and gives a latency free, 32/64 bit version, with a seemingly greater control, for a not unreasonable price IMHO of 189 dollars or 148.75 Euro.
There's another set of High Definition Impulse Responses also available for 179 dollars or 141.61 Euro.
If the program is bought with the HDIR package then there's a discount of about 18% it seems.
Amazingly, subscribing to the E-mail system gives a further 25% off the already very reasonable prices.
(I subscribed some time ago and have been very pleased NOT to be swamped with spam.)

Christian Knufinke's site can be found here: http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir2.php
Replace "sir2" in the URL with "sir1" for the original reverb plugin.

Has anyone tried the newer version SIR2, I wonder, and could give some feedback, please?
Very many thanks in advance.

Kind regards,
John.
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Author of http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/ MIDI tutorials.
SysExJohn
 
Posts: 245
Joined: December, 2013
Location: Betelgeuse, shoulder of Orion.
Reputation: 21
Software Owned:
Sonar 7 PE, Finale 2012c, GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, World, CPO, Harps, Steinway Basic + GPO5.

Re: Convolution ~ Garritan In A DAW ~ Altiverb or Vienna MIR

Postby Michael.B » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:58 pm

Well .. I finally got to trial the Vienna MIR Pro aaaannnd .....

First, no way would my existing computer run this program and I was running out of options for simply updating my computer. It was time for a total rebuild.

Having completely rebuilt my computer from the ground up I was ready to trial MIR Pro. Interestingly, just about the same time, Audioease (Altiverb) announced that they were on the verge of releasing the Windows version Altiverb 7 .. a hugely interesting dilemma even though this is two years late. I loved Altiverb, it was the best pro ambience tool avaiable and I had used it for years. Additionally, there was promise that the upgrade price from my Version 6 to the new Version 7 would be considerably less than starting all over again with the expensive MIR Pro.

So, onto the trial. I bought the necessary Vienna Key and installed my trial version of MIR Pro. After a few smallish learning curves and the superb Vienna support I was soon ready to go with it in my Sonar X3 Producer.

I opened my new Christmas project and loaded MIR Pro using the beautiful Vienna Koncerthaus Mozart Hall. I was presented with the virtual auditorium and stage which, I have to say, is just superb. I began placing my instruments on the stage. As I moved the instruments around, thousands of IRs were applied and the sound of the instrument followed its movement around the stage. In one word .. phenomenal.

A word of warning, this is one of those things that if you try it, you won't want to be without it.
This thing is staying on my computer. There is still much for me to learn and different ways of doing things but this is just too good. :D
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