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Selective Reverb

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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby gogreen » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:10 pm

Thanks, Michael, Randy, and Derrek.

So, Art - That's all you have to do. Just use those Send knobs, listen to the results, adjust as needed. Multiple instances of ARIA can indeed have totally different impulse response chosen if you want, as Derrek suggested, but it's a bit in the area of "advanced user" approaches to use different reverbs for different instruments. Especially since you're wanting to emulate the sound of bands on stage, it's most logical to use just one reverb "flavor," since a concert is heard in a single venue, and reverb is simulating the sound of instruments played in a real space.

Art again - This is all probably looking much simpler to you now. As I said in my last response, the only thing you're asking that isn't quite making literal sense is when you're talking about having reverb only "briefly," in selective sections of a piece. Without automating the Sends (which you can't do in Finale) - it's a matter of finding a Set and Forget level you like - the reverb isn't going to be coming in just momentarily here and there.

I do this already. I was trying to figure a way to increase or decrease the setting for an instrument or for a group of instruments for only a measure or so--the length of a solo passage, for instance.

I think there is a way in Finale to change the level of reverb for a few measures or so in parts. I think I can create an expression using controller #91, but I'd have to find the correct initial setting value to able to raise and lower it in expressions (see attached).

Nevertheless, this idea has become moot. I think the better, and simpler, way to bring out a solo or soli passage is with dynamics (and hide them in the score). This is what a conductor would do to interpret a score's performance in a live performance--not fool with reverb!

What works for me is starting with a pleasing level of reverb and then subtlely adjusting the dynamics to bring out and push back parts.

Art

P.S. Michael's screen shot and audio test are interesting. I usually set reverb in my scores individually for each channel at about the 11 o' clock position for a pleasing sound. Tubas and timpani, around 9 o' clock.
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Arthur J. Michaels
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby rbowser » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:02 pm

Thanks for the new post, Art - The smoke is finally clearing on this thread so I'm understanding better what the original question actually was:

gogreen wrote:...I do this already. I was trying to figure a way to increase or decrease the setting for an instrument or for a group of instruments for only a measure or so--the length of a solo passage, for instance...


Good - See, earlier I couldn't tell from this thread if ARIA's Sends were being used at all, that's why I asked my last question. But to vary the amount of reverb throughout a piece involves Automation, whether you do it with Expressions (if such a thing is possible) or direct MIDI control (which is definitely possible). It's an unusual thing that most people don't do, but in Sonar I'll automate controls to reduce the amount of reverb during thicker passages. The result is to reduce muddiness without it being noticed that the venue/amount of reverb just changed.

Derrek was actually on the right track when he asked if you were trying to move the instruments through space, because changing the amount of reverb is actually doing just that.

gogreen wrote:...this idea has become moot. I think the better, and simpler, way to bring out a solo or soli passage is with dynamics (and hide them in the score). This is what a conductor would do to interpret a score's performance in a live performance--not fool with reverb!


There you go. You're talking about Mixing - In DAW software it's a matter of automating the volume of a track up or down as needed, and usually not changing the reverb level. In a score, it's using volume dynamics to control when something is more prominent, even though you're only using 6 or 7 dynamic levels as compared to the 127 levels actually available with MIDI.

gogreen wrote:...What works for me is starting with a pleasing level of reverb and then subtlely adjusting the dynamics to bring out and push back parts.


Right, which is a reiteration of the above. That isn't changing reverb, it's changing the volume level.

gogreen wrote:...Michael's screen shot and audio test are interesting. I usually set reverb in my scores individually for each channel at about the 11 o' clock position for a pleasing sound. Tubas and timpani, around 9 o' clock.


If you leave the the master level (under Effects in ARIA) at the default level, that's actually a mix of dry and wet. That's why I push it all the way to wet, the way a reverb plugin is used in DAW software. You start with "pure 100% reverb," then the Send amounts are at a lower level. Like I said in my last post, the amount of a reverb is a balance between the Sends and the actual master level of the reverb.

But what you described with Tubas and Timpani at 9:00 and the rest at 11:00 is actually opposite of how reverb works in concert. The more reverb, the farther away an instrument is. That's a simple logic, because in a concert hall, we can easily perceive that the instruments farthest from the audience have their sound bouncing around in more space before reaching our ears than the instruments closer to us. So basic artificial reverb theory is that percussion has the most reverb.

Using your standard of having most instruments around 11:00, here's what would be an approximate reverb plot for a band, as per standard artificial reverb theory:

Clarinets 1, Oboe, Flute 1 - 9:00
Clarinets 2, Bass Clarinet, Bassoon, Horn, Flute 2 - 10:00
Clarinets 3, Trumpets, Saxophones - 11:00
Percussion, Tuba, Euphonium, Trombones - 12:00

That outline is refined when we think of how some members of a section are closer to us than others, so some instruments get 9:30, 10:30 etc. The different reverb amounts in combination with the panning is what creates the 3-D concert hall venue simulation.

See?

Randy
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby gogreen » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:23 am

If you leave the the master level (under Effects in ARIA) at the default level, that's actually a mix of dry and wet. That's why I push it all the way to wet, the way a reverb plugin is used in DAW software. You start with "pure 100% reverb," then the Send amounts are at a lower level. Like I said in my last post, the amount of a reverb is a balance between the Sends and the actual master level of the reverb.

But what you described with Tubas and Timpani at 9:00 and the rest at 11:00 is actually opposite of how reverb works in concert. The more reverb, the farther away an instrument is. That's a simple logic, because in a concert hall, we can easily perceive that the instruments farthest from the audience have their sound bouncing around in more space before reaching our ears than the instruments closer to us. So basic artificial reverb theory is that percussion has the most reverb.

Using your standard of having most instruments around 11:00, here's what would be an approximate reverb plot for a band, as per standard artificial reverb theory:

Clarinets 1, Oboe, Flute 1 - 9:00
Clarinets 2, Bass Clarinet, Bassoon, Horn, Flute 2 - 10:00
Clarinets 3, Trumpets, Saxophones - 11:00
Percussion, Tuba, Euphonium, Trombones - 12:00

That outline is refined when we think of how some members of a section are closer to us than others, so some instruments get 9:30, 10:30 etc. The different reverb amounts in combination with the panning is what creates the 3-D concert hall venue simulation.

Thank you for these details, Randy. I've copied this information to a separate reference file. I very much appreciate your continued excellent, expert advice!

Art
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