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Selective Reverb

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Selective Reverb

Postby gogreen » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:20 am

I'm thinking about using reverb selectively in spots, for groups of instruments in some passages or perhaps for solo passages. Is this one way to bring out and separate a part or parts in a rendering? I'm happy with my pan settings, so I'd leave that alone.

Art
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby rbowser » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:39 am

gogreen wrote:I'm thinking about using reverb selectively in spots, for groups of instruments in some passages or perhaps for solo passages. Is this one way to bring out and separate a part or parts in a rendering? I'm happy with my pan settings, so I'd leave that alone.

Art


Art, do you mean literally to use reverb only "in spots" and just in "some passages"-? That would necessitate having different amounts of reverb coming in on selected instrument at different points in a piece. That can be done in DAW software, since a reverb plugin is loaded into a dedicated reverb bus, and then that bus's volume slider can be automated, and or the individual Send knobs can be automated.

But maybe you actually meant just to have different amounts of reverb added to each group, so you can get more three dimensional in your mix, but leaving the actual reverb level at one static level throughout? That's the more usual practice - setting an amount for each track and leaving it the same for the duration.

In Finale's mixer, the only reverb Send knob seems to me just on the Master. That adds the same amount of reverb to an entire piece - and that can be OK, but it's pretty crude.

Once again I have to express some ignorance about how Finale works since I don't use it, and can only go by info I look up online, and read on posts from Finale users - I think you can use ARIA's mixer for this, in the same way DAW software users can? I mean the Send knobs on each of the 16 control modules in ARIA's mixer - those set the amount of reverb for each track/instrument. And of course the basic reverb theory is that the farther away a musician is from the audience, the more his instrument's sound will bounce around in the performance venue. Percussion is farthest away and gets the most reverb, for instance.

Helping to give focus to a soloist, you can give him less reverb than the group, for instance.

So - I'm not sure if you just meant mixing various amounts of reverb, if so, that's done in ARIA - If you meant varying the amount of reverb throughout a piece, that would have to be in a recording program.

Randy
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Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby Derrek » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:08 am

In Finale one can also group instruments into up to eight different instances of the Aria player, each with its own ambiance or convolution reverb. But AFAIK Finale has no automation capability that would allow reverb levels to change during a composition other than having "tracks" split/duplicated (hocket) with the same instrument assignment to multiple Aria instances to obtain different reverb levels.

Art, are you trying to give the sense of instruments moving through space during the performance? (Very Charles Ives-ian!)
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby gogreen » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:30 am

Helping to give focus to a soloist, you can give him less reverb than the group, for instance.

Yup. This is what I have in mind. In Finale I can create an expression that changes the controller settings, but I don't know which controller in Finale is for reverb, and how it's adjusted. I've asked this question over in the Finale forum, so I will pursue that part there.

Art, are you trying to give the sense of instruments moving through space during the performance? (Very Charles Ives-ian!)

Hah, no, Derrek. Just trying in Finale/Aria to bring out a solo portion or two, or a section briefly.

Thanks, Derrek and Randy.
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby Derrek » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:16 am

Cool.

I take it the Finale "Solo" expression (which increases volume, I believe) does not give you what you want.
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby gogreen » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:45 am

I take it the Finale "Solo" expression (which increases volume, I believe) does not give you what you want.

Haven't tried it, but I will. Thanks, Derrek.

Art
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby Michael.B » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:47 am

gogreen wrote:I'm thinking about using reverb selectively in spots, for groups of instruments in some passages or perhaps for solo passages. Is this one way to bring out and separate a part or parts in a rendering? I'm happy with my pan settings, so I'd leave that alone.

Art

Hello Art,

Randy and Derrek have covered your question and there is not much more I can add to that. I would just confirm though that it most certainly is usual to use reverb selectively for instrumental groups and solo instruments when working in a DAW. I use Altiverb and always have multiple selections in Sonar. I realise this is not much help to you as you are working in Finale and Derek has covered your options there.

However, if you did want to learn more about using multiple selections of reverb generally there are some excellent discussions and video tutorials at Northern Sounds. Although these relate specifically to Altiverb, the general idea and process are all there. I think you will find them valuable. If you are interested, just do a forums search for Altiverb and/or reverb.
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby rbowser » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:18 pm

Hey you guys: Art, Derrek and Michael - Help this guy out (me) who doesn't use Finale, and so always feel sketchy about how some things work in the program.

From following this thread, I'm still not clear what the usual approach is for using reverb in Finale.

Derrek wrote:In Finale one can also group instruments into up to eight different instances of the Aria player, each with its own ambiance or convolution reverb...

That I understand - You're describing each ARIA instance having its own reverb, and different impulse responses or Ambience settings could be used in each one.

But does that mean that it isn't possible to use the Sends in ARIA for different amounts of a single reverb?-- The most standard approach in DAW software is to use one reverb plugin for an entire piece. That plugin is sitting in a dedicated reverb bus. The Send controls for each instrument/track are used for sending varying amounts of signal to that bus, so that some instruments are more dry and close to the audience, others have higher Send values, placing those instruments farther away.

OR, if the user wants to do all the reverb work inside ARIA itself, then one of the two reverb plugins is chosen, and the Sends in ARIA's mixer are used to add different amounts to each instrument slot. The results are the same as the first method in my last paragraph.

So, Derrek, are you saying that the separate instances are used for the instruments because each one can only have one level of reverb - which would mean the Send controls in ARIA don't work? Or were you only talking about how totally different impulse responses could be used that way?

gogreen wrote:...In Finale I can create an expression that changes the controller settings, but I don't know which controller in Finale is for reverb, and how it's adjusted...

And that question also makes me wonder if you're wanting to control reverb amounts in that indirect way because the ARIA Sends don't work in Finale? Even if you could find an expression to control the amounts, it would have to be by numbers, by some formula, whereas, if the Send knobs work, you instantly can hear what the result is. So - I'm not only wondering why you'd want to work in a more complicated way, but if maybe you're hoping an expression can control the reverb because, as I've been asking in this post, ARIA's knobs don't function in Finale? I mean, if they Do work - all you have to do is look at ARIA and move the knobs, hit play to hear the results.

Derrek wrote:...Art, are you trying to give the sense of instruments moving through space during the performance? (Very Charles Ives-ian!)

gogreen wrote:...Hah, no, Derrek. Just trying in Finale/Aria to bring out a solo portion or two, or a section briefly...

Art, that last part "bring out...a section briefly," still makes it sound like you're wanting to automate the reverb levels instead of just finding away to set different amounts for each group or instrument. To have a reverb setting only work momentarily for a section would involve automation which turns the level up or down during the course of a piece. See what I mean? With reverb amounts in the usual, single, static setting, it's impossible for the reverb to only work in a section "briefly."

So guys - Please help me out so I can understand how things work in Finale and I can help out better next time with these kinds of reverb questions.

Randy
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Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
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Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

Re: Selective Reverb

Postby Michael.B » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:27 pm

rbowser wrote: ..... But does that mean that it isn't possible to use the Sends in ARIA for different amounts of a single reverb?-- The most standard approach in DAW software is to use one reverb plugin for an entire piece. That plugin is sitting in a dedicated reverb bus. The Send controls for each instrument/track are used for sending varying amounts of signal to that bus, so that some instruments are more dry and close to the audience, others have higher Send values, placing those instruments farther away.

OR, if the user wants to do all the reverb work inside ARIA itself, then one of the two reverb plugins is chosen, and the Sends in ARIA's mixer are used to add different amounts to each instrument slot. The results are the same as the first method in my last paragraph.

Randy

Hello Randy,

It is indeed possible to use the Sends in ARIA for different amounts of a single reverb. I threw together a very hurried example of an audio file straight out of Finale 2011 (the version Art is using). I also have a matching screenshot to show the Finale page and the Aria settings.

For the full-size screenshot (to see more clearly), please click in the top far-left corner of the screenshot.

Finale 2011 Screenshot ~ Aria Sends Different For Each Stave/Channel/Track
Image

Audio File For The Above Screenshot

As you can see, the first note (Flute) has full 'Send' and has full reverb. The second note (Oboe) has zero send and zero reverb. The third note has quarter 'Send' with some reverb and the final note (Bassoon) has half 'Send' also with some reverb.

For the first two, the difference is particularly noticeable whereas the difference between last two may not be quite as noticeable as there is only a quarter 'Send' difference but I think there's enough there to show it does work.
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Re: Selective Reverb

Postby rbowser » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:50 pm

Michael.B wrote:...It is indeed possible to use the Sends in ARIA for different amounts of a single reverb...

Thank you very much, Michael - Reputation point for you!

I've always thought that the Sends in ARIA's mixer could be used in Finale, but this thread made me start to wonder if I've been correct. I appreciate the confirmation. I couldn't imagine why the Sends wouldn't work, since it's not the same as Finale's mixer taking charge of ARIA's panning and volume controls.

So, Art - That's all you have to do. Just use those Send knobs, listen to the results, adjust as needed. Multiple instances of ARIA can indeed have totally different impulse response chosen if you want, as Derrek suggested, but it's a bit in the area of "advanced user" approaches to use different reverbs for different instruments. Especially since you're wanting to emulate the sound of bands on stage, it's most logical to use just one reverb "flavor," since a concert is heard in a single venue, and reverb is simulating the sound of instruments played in a real space.

Michael, you must have the master volume control on the Effects page turned down lower than what I use - Maybe you have it at the default? Because you have the flute's Send turned all the way up - much farther than I've ever used an ARIA send. 12:00 is as high as I go - BUT, that's because I have the master control turned all the way up, along with a teeny bit of delay to help not blur the sound - there's a split second when the instrument is heard by itself, dry, but long enough to be perceived as "dry."

So that adds the point that we need to remember that we're balancing two reverb controls - the Sends and the master control.

Art again - This is all probably looking much simpler to you now. As I said in my last response, the only thing you're asking that isn't quite making literal sense is when you're talking about having reverb only "briefly," in selective sections of a piece. Without automating the Sends (which you can't do in Finale) - it's a matter of finding a Set and Forget level you like - the reverb isn't going to be coming in just momentarily here and there.

Thanks again, Michael!

Randy
  • 0

Garritan Organs demos of all 75 stops

"Dorian Gray"

Hardware:

Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
Alesis i|O2 interface
Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64
with dual monitors
User avatar
rbowser
 
Posts: 494
Joined: December, 2013
Reputation: 50
Software Owned:
ARIA Player v1.626
ARIA Engine 1.665
GPO4
JABB 3
COMB 2
Instant Orchestra
Garritan World
Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
Garritan Harps
Garritan Authorized Steinway
Garritan Stradivari solo violin
Garritan Gofriller solo cello

Sundry soft synths:
Dimension Pro, EZDrummer, over 50 others

Sonar 8.5 (have but don't use Sonar X1)
Sony Sound Forge 10
Sibelius 7

Video editing: Cyberlink Power Director 11

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