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Tuplets in the notations element

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Tuplets in the notations element

Postby etienneF » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:32 pm

Hello,
In the tuplet element inside the notations element, there is a placement attribute that seems to place the actual notes of the tuplet, above or below it. But how would you place differently from the number, the tuplet slur if bracket = yes ? Example: I want the slur above and the tuplet number below. Is it possible ?
Thank you.
etienneF
 
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby Hans Vereyken » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:25 am

Hi etienneF,

As far as I know this isn't possible. For me it raises the question whether it is semantically correct to separate the tuplet-number from the tuplet-shape. In my opinion they should be together and therefore MusicXML doesn't need a way to do this. I'd love to hear some other thoughts on the subject.

Of course it is possible to get the visuals right by doing it like this:
Code: Select all
      <note>
        <pitch>
          <step>F</step>
          <octave>4</octave>
        </pitch>
        <duration>2</duration>
        <voice>1</voice>
        <type>eighth</type>
        <time-modification>
          <actual-notes>3</actual-notes>
          <normal-notes>2</normal-notes>
        </time-modification>
        <stem>up</stem>
        <beam number="1">begin</beam>
        <notations>
          <tuplet number="1" bracket="no" show-number="actual" placement="below" type="start"/>
          <slur number="1" placement="above" type="start"/>
        </notations>
      </note>
      <note>
        <pitch>
          <step>G</step>
          <octave>4</octave>
        </pitch>
        <duration>2</duration>
        <voice>1</voice>
        <type>eighth</type>
        <time-modification>
          <actual-notes>3</actual-notes>
          <normal-notes>2</normal-notes>
        </time-modification>
        <stem>up</stem>
        <beam number="1">continue</beam>
      </note>
      <note>
        <pitch>
          <step>A</step>
          <octave>4</octave>
        </pitch>
        <duration>2</duration>
        <voice>1</voice>
        <type>eighth</type>
        <time-modification>
          <actual-notes>3</actual-notes>
          <normal-notes>2</normal-notes>
        </time-modification>
        <stem>up</stem>
        <beam number="1">end</beam>
        <notations>
          <tuplet number="1" type="stop"/>
          <slur number="1" type="stop"/>
        </notations>
      </note>
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby etienneF » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:59 pm

Hello Hans,
Thank you for the answer. It seems strange to me that your proposal uses the bracket="no" attribute on the tuplet element, but it seems to provide the visual aspect wanted. Consequently, I wonder when bracket="yes" must be used under these conditions...
Regards.
etienneF
 
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby Hans Vereyken » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:44 am

bracket="yes" will place the bracket on the same side as the number, so we can't use it in your situation. Adding a slur is 'a solution', but you should know that (semantically spoken) the slur has nothing to do with the tuplet. But this way you can achieve the visuals you are after.
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby Michael Good » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:23 am

Hello Etienne,

Could you please share a repertoire example that illustrates what you are looking for?

MusicXML could possibly use more flexibility in specifying the formatting of tuplet numbers and brackets independently. However, the example that you're describing is outside of my experience in looking at musical repertoire. So it would be very helpful to me to see what you are trying to do, and to understand what repertoire this comes from.

In the meantime, Hans's suggestion seems the best way to achieve what you want in MusicXML 3.0.
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby etienneF » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:05 am

Hello Michael,

Indeed Hans's answer gives the solution. Thanks.
But it raises another question : can the slur be located just above/below the tuplet number, so that it doesn't take more than a note in length ?
Example : Does the tuplet:
Image
can be just written with:
Code: Select all
<notations>
  <slur number="1" placement="above" type="start"/>
  <slur number="1" placement="above" type="stop"/>
</notations>

on the F note ?
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby Hans Vereyken » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:46 am

That's interesting, I like the visuals. Afaik there is no way to manipulate the 'bracket' of a tuplet this way.

So I think a slur is the way to go, but a slur starting and stopping on the same note will render a vertical line in some MusicXML visualizers. If we (@neoscores) encounter them they are deleted. I think you should start the slur on the third note, stop it at the fifth note of the tuplet and use the bezier-x, bezier-y, default, x and default-y attributes of slur to shape the slur this way.

Where did you found a score featuring this notation?

All the best
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby etienneF » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:34 am

In Durand's edition of Chopin's waltzes..
As rendering a vertical line (or nothing) in this case is (imho) useless, why not providing this behavior as the default ? There is not reason for making the case of a sole note as in exception requiring complex Bezier curves…
One question would remain : Should the order stop/start on the same slur number being considered as an error or being the same as start/stop ?
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby Hans Vereyken » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:32 am

I found some similar tuplets in some Durand editions, it looks nice but never catched my eye. It seems like this is used only in cramped conditions. I have no clue on how to do this in MusicXML in a semantically correct way.

A slur is a curved line spanning two or more notes, not one.
Also, there is a certain score writer (won't name it) that wrongfully exports slurs starting and stopping on the same note, displaying your suggestion instead of deleting it would be worse.

I do agree that it would be nice to have this behavior, but I think MusicXML doesn't (yet?) support it.

If a note has 2 slurs with the same number:
start/stop would be an error (like I described above)
stop/start would mean a slur stopping, and another slur starting. They can have the same number since they appear next to each other. The number is used to make a clear distinction between slurs appearing above/below each other.

Michael, please correct me if I'm wrong :-)
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Re: Tuplets in the notations element

Postby Michael Good » Wed May 07, 2014 3:17 pm

I think the main problem is that the tuplet bracket formatting capabilities in MusicXML 3.0 are not quite sufficient for your needs. Any other solution like the slurs is a workaround for this limitation. This is something we could potentially address in a future MusicXML version.

Note that slur (or tied) elements starting and ending on the same note are the way that MusicXML 3.0 represents laissez-vibrer marks. Ideally they should have at least some x positioning to provide a clue to the renderer as to how to format it. This is one reason why notation programs will sometimes associate both the start and end point of a slur with a single note. The same is true when people use slurs in a score editor to notation things like doits and other jazz articulations.
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