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Guitar tab performance instructions

Moderator: Michael Good

Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby Joe Berkovitz » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:18 pm

Snake,

Vibrato is often represented by a <bracket> direction element with a line-type="wavy" attribute.

Instructions such as "palm mute" or "let ring" are often handled by combining <direction-type> elements containing successive <word> and <bracket> elements that together form a labeled, dashed line.

There can be considerable variation on how these elements are represented in real-world tab scores. This is one of the areas where standardization has a way to go. For now it’s probably best to examine the wording of directions and try to recognize common performance instructions without depending on exact spellings, case or abbreviation.

. . . . . ...Joe

Joe Berkovitz
President

Noteflight LLC
Boston, Mass.
phone: +1 978 314 6271
www.noteflight.com
"Your music, everywhere"


snake wrote:Hey Guys,

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears there are no musicxml elements for the following?

Vibrato

Palm Mute

Let Ring

If this is the case, they are very commonly used Guitar Dynamics and should be added to the standard.

Cheers,

On 3 Feb 2014, >
Mogens Lundholm wrote:Hello all

A Music-Xml/Midi-player is avaiblable at www.programfabriken.com, called midi.exe. It runs pt. on PC only. No installation is needed - unpack the zip-file and run.

Regards
Mogens
Joe Berkovitz
 
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Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby Michael Good » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:12 am

Hi Snake,

Joe's response says just about everything that I was going to write. You can also use a wavy-line element for vibrato in addition to the bracket element, but the bracket element has some additional flexibility.

The mute element that Mogens mentions does help represent playback for the palm mute. I don't know if anyone is supporting that MusicXML 3.0 feature yet though. Additional ways to specific playback is tricky to specify in MusicXML in a way that really works well across both applications and repertoire.

Best regards,

Michael Good
VP of R&D
MakeMusic, Inc.

Joe Berkovitz wrote:Snake,

Vibrato is often represented by a <bracket> direction element with a line-type="wavy" attribute.

Instructions such as "palm mute" or "let ring" are often handled by combining <direction-type> elements containing successive <word> and <bracket> elements that together form a labeled, dashed line.

There can be considerable variation on how these elements are represented in real-world tab scores. This is one of the areas where standardization has a way to go. For now it's probably best to examine the wording of directions and try to recognize common performance instructions without depending on exact spellings, case or abbreviation.

. . . . . ...Joe

Joe Berkovitz
President

Noteflight LLC
Boston, Mass.
phone: +1 978 314 6271
www.noteflight.com
"Your music, everywhere"
User avatar
Michael Good
 
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Joined: March, 2014
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Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby snake » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:58 pm

Hey Guys,

Ultimately I would like to see Guitar Transcriptions export and import seemlessly between Guitar Pro, Sibelius, Finale and Notion.

Right Hand Palm Mute is different to Mute and VERY specific to the Guitar, especially in the Metal Genre.

Transcriptions of Trash bands like Anthrax and Metallica using MusicXML as it stands results in most of the dynamics being lost.

Why not add

- Vibrato
- Narrow
- Wide

- Right Hand Palm Mute

- Let Ring

That would be a good, unambiguous start.

Done in an obvious, simple manner it will lead programmers to the obvious options.

Cheers,

On 14 Feb 2014,
Michael Good wrote:Hi Snake,

Joe's response says just about everything that I was going to write. You can also use a wavy-line element for vibrato in addition to the bracket element, but the bracket element has some additional flexibility.

The mute element that Mogens mentions does help represent playback for the palm mute. I don't know if anyone is supporting that MusicXML 3.0 feature yet though. Additional ways to specific playback is tricky to specify in MusicXML in a way that really works well across both applications and repertoire.

Best regards,

Michael Good
VP of R&D
MakeMusic, Inc.


Joe Berkovitz wrote:Snake,

Vibrato is often represented by a <bracket> direction element with a line-type="wavy" attribute.

Instructions such as "palm mute" or "let ring" are often handled by combining <direction-type> elements containing successive <word> and <bracket> elements that together form a labeled, dashed line.

There can be considerable variation on how these elements are represented in real-world tab scores. This is one of the areas where standardization has a way to go. For now it's probably best to examine the wording of directions and try to recognize common performance instructions without depending on exact spellings, case or abbreviation.

. . . . . ...Joe

Joe Berkovitz
President

Noteflight LLC
Boston, Mass.
phone: +1 978 314 6271
www.noteflight.com
"Your music, everywhere"
snake
 
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Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby Michael Good » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:04 am

Hi Snake,

Thank you for the clarification. Is the main problem that the playback of the guitar notation is not transferring well? Or the visual appearance of the notation? Or both?

I think that MusicXML's solution really should be adequate for the visual appearance of the notation, at least as transferred between applications with reasonably good MusicXML support.

Playback however is a different matter. It is much more difficult to standardize between applications due to all the ways of specifying playback techniques with different virtual instruments. We made a small attempt in this area with MusicXML 3.0. While the instrument library has been supported, the playback techniques added have generally not been adopted. We would like to see more success in what is available for MusicXML 3.0 before adding more features that may not be used in MusicXML 4.0.

Thank you for any added clarification that you can provide.

Best regards,

Michael Good
VP of R&D
MakeMusic, Inc.


snake wrote:Hey Guys,

Ultimately I would like to see Guitar Transcriptions export and import seemlessly between Guitar Pro, Sibelius, Finale and Notion.

Right Hand Palm Mute is different to Mute and VERY specific to the Guitar, especially in the Metal Genre.

Transcriptions of Trash bands like Anthrax and Metallica using MusicXML as it stands results in most of the dynamics being lost.

Why not add

- Vibrato
- Narrow
- Wide

- Right Hand Palm Mute

- Let Ring

That would be a good, unambiguous start.

Done in an obvious, simple manner it will lead programmers to the obvious options.

Cheers,
User avatar
Michael Good
 
Posts: 2197
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby snake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:34 am

Hi Michael,

At this stage I’m concerned about the visual appearance only.

Sibelius and Guitar Pro do not generate any MusicXML code to represent Vibrato at all.

Because there is no < Vibrato > element.

I would like to see

< Vibrato >

< Right Hand Palm Mute >

< Let Ring >

Added to the MusicXML definition.

Cheers,

On 21 Feb 2014,
Michael Good wrote:Hi Snake,

Thank you for the clarification. Is the main problem that the playback of the guitar notation is not transferring well? Or the visual appearance of the notation? Or both?

I think that MusicXML's solution really should be adequate for the visual appearance of the notation, at least as transferred between applications with reasonably good MusicXML support.

Playback however is a different matter. It is much more difficult to standardize between applications due to all the ways of specifying playback techniques with different virtual instruments. We made a small attempt in this area with MusicXML 3.0. While the instrument library has been supported, the playback techniques added have generally not been adopted. We would like to see more success in what is available for MusicXML 3.0 before adding more features that may not be used in MusicXML 4.0.

Thank you for any added clarification that you can provide.

Best regards,

Michael Good
VP of R&D
MakeMusic, Inc.


snake wrote:Hey Guys,

Ultimately I would like to see Guitar Transcriptions export and import seemlessly between Guitar Pro, Sibelius, Finale and Notion.

Right Hand Palm Mute is different to Mute and VERY specific to the Guitar, especially in the Metal Genre.

Transcriptions of Trash bands like Anthrax and Metallica using MusicXML as it stands results in most of the dynamics being lost.

Why not add

- Vibrato
- Narrow
- Wide

- Right Hand Palm Mute

- Let Ring

That would be a good, unambiguous start.

Done in an obvious, simple manner it will lead programmers to the obvious options.

Cheers,
snake
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby Michael Good » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:52 am

Hi Snake,

Could you please email me a Sibelius file that has these problems off-list? I would like to see if there is anything we could fix in Dolet 6 for Sibelius to address this, or if it's due to a limitation of the ManuScript plug-in interface.

In my experience, adding elements that duplicate existing MusicXML functionality usually doesn't make interchange better. It makes it worse because it makes the format more complex. If you are seeing a problem with visual appearance, that's more a problem with the MusicXML software than with the MusicXML format.

I can't do anything directly about Guitar Pro or Sibelius 7's built-in MusicXML export. But I can do something about the MusicXML exported using our Dolet plug-in, as well as Finale's support.

Best regards,

Michael Good
VP of R&D
MakeMusic, Inc.


Somebody wrote:Hi Michael,

At this stage I'm concerned about the visual appearance only.

Sibelius and Guitar Pro do not generate any MusicXML code to represent Vibrato at all.

Because there is no < Vibrato > element.

I would like to see

< Vibrato >

< Right Hand Palm Mute >

< Let Ring >

Added to the MusicXML definition.

Cheers,
User avatar
Michael Good
 
Posts: 2197
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby snake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:47 pm

Hi Michael,

Fantastic!

I have the plugin, I will use it and send you examples.

The whole point of MusicXML is interchange, I’m happy to create files that demonstrate problems between apps.

MusicXML exported from Finale and the Dolet 6 plugin for Sieblius is what I will send to you.

I have very good communication with Guitar Pro 6 and they are working to improve their MusicXML functionality.

They just released an update that addresses the issue.

Cheers,

On 22 Feb 2014,
Michael Good wrote:Hi Snake,

Could you please email me a Sibelius file that has these problems off-list? I would like to see if there is anything we could fix in Dolet 6 for Sibelius to address this, or if it's due to a limitation of the ManuScript plug-in interface.

In my experience, adding elements that duplicate existing MusicXML functionality usually doesn't make interchange better. It makes it worse because it makes the format more complex. If you are seeing a problem with visual appearance, that's more a problem with the MusicXML software than with the MusicXML format.

I can't do anything directly about Guitar Pro or Sibelius 7's built-in MusicXML export. But I can do something about the MusicXML exported using our Dolet plug-in, as well as Finale's support.

Best regards,

Michael Good
VP of R&D
MakeMusic, Inc.

Michael Good wrote:Hi Michael,

At this stage I'm concerned about the visual appearance only.

Sibelius and Guitar Pro do not generate any MusicXML code to represent Vibrato at all.

Because there is no < Vibrato > element.

I would like to see

< Vibrato >

< Right Hand Palm Mute >

< Let Ring >

Added to the MusicXML definition.

Cheers,
snake
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby snake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:14 pm

Dolet 6 is generating the following.

Palm Mute

<direction-type>
<words default-y='11' relative-x='-5'>P.M.</words>
</direction-type>

I would like to see something like this.

<technical>
<palm mute>
<string>5</string>
<fret>0</fret>
</palm mute>
</technical>

Let Ring

<direction-type>
<words default-y='24' relative-x='-1'>let ring</words>
</direction-type>

I would like to see <technical>
<let ring>
<string>2</string>
<fret>5</fret>
</let ring>
</technical>

Vibrato

Nothing is generated

I would like to see

<technical>
<vibrato>
<string>2</string>
<fret>5</fret>
</vibrato>
</technical>

These new elements would give us the Visual Notation and Performance

Cheers,

On 22 Feb 2014,
snake wrote:Hi Michael,

Fantastic!

I have the plugin, I will use it and send you examples.

The whole point of MusicXML is interchange, I’m happy to create files that demonstrate problems between apps.

MusicXML exported from Finale and the Dolet 6 plugin for Sieblius is what I will send to you.

I have very good communication with Guitar Pro 6 and they are working to improve their MusicXML functionality.

They just released an update that addresses the issue.

Cheers,

On 22 Feb 2014, >
Michael Good wrote:Hi Snake,

Could you please email me a Sibelius file that has these problems off-list? I would like to see if there is anything we could fix in Dolet 6 for Sibelius to address this, or if it's due to a limitation of the ManuScript plug-in interface.

In my experience, adding elements that duplicate existing MusicXML functionality usually doesn't make interchange better. It makes it worse because it makes the format more complex. If you are seeing a problem with visual appearance, that's more a problem with the MusicXML software than with the MusicXML format.

I can't do anything directly about Guitar Pro or Sibelius 7's built-in MusicXML export. But I can do something about the MusicXML exported using our Dolet plug-in, as well as Finale's support.

Best regards,

Michael Good
VP of R&D
MakeMusic, Inc.

snake
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby Mogens Lundholm » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:10 am

Hello Snake and all

Doing the music-xml-player I have some thoughts about this. I would like vibrato, mute and let-ring to be a property of the note and also have informnation of how to do this. The example of an F-note below shows a solution with 8 times vibrato and 50% of a note step. This should be easy for me (and others) to convert into an adequate midi command. Example 1: Existing MuseScore plays this without notice, Finale gives a warning but accepts it. My player plays it. Of cause without vibrato. Do not have Midi-Specification here - A muted guitar exists as instrument, but I will call this tomorrow. Anyway the sound will be limited to what is possible for the midi synthesizer. But not impossible. (considering midi Control Change 76,77,78: Vibrato, 1: Modulation Wheel , 39 Volume, 64: Damper, 66 Sostenuto, 74 Brightness and others - not perfect, they affect the channel).

<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato="8,50" guitar- mute="yes">
<pitch>
<step>F</step>
<octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>1</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
</note>

And let ring:
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" guitar-let-ring="yes">

Could this be acceptable? (Style and functionality - enough information to set the symbol at right place)

An alternative solution would be

<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00">
<pitch>
<step>F</step>
<octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>1</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<vibrato-times>8</vibrato-time>
<vibrato-level>50</vibrato-level>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
</note>

However this is not accepted by MuseScore nor Finale.But the first solution is compatible with existing MuseScore and Finale.

Look forward to hear your opinion

Kind regards
Mogens


snake wrote:Dolet 6 is generating the following.

Palm Mute

<direction-type>
<words default-y='11' relative-x='-5'>P.M.</words>
</direction-type>

I would like to see something like this.

<technical>
<palm mute>
<string>5</string>
<fret>0</fret>
</palm mute>
</technical>

Let Ring

<direction-type>
<words default-y='24' relative-x='-1'>let ring</words>
</direction-type>

I would like to see <technical>
<let ring>
<string>2</string>
<fret>5</fret>
</let ring>
</technical>

Vibrato

Nothing is generated

I would like to see

<technical>
<vibrato>
<string>2</string>
<fret>5</fret>
</vibrato>
</technical>

These new elements would give us the Visual Notation and Performance

Cheers,
Mogens Lundholm
 
Posts: 60
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: Guitar tab performance instructions

Postby snake » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:22 pm

Hi Mogens,

I’m happy with
Mogens Lundholm wrote:<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato="8,50" guitar- mute="yes">

or
Somebody wrote:<vibrato-times>8</vibrato-time>
<vibrato-level>50</vibrato-level>

Although the first one is more eloquent.

> <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" guitar-let-ring="yes">

or <let-ring>
</let-ring>

is also good

I don’t like guitar-mute, it should be guitar-palm-mute or just palm-mute
Mogens Lundholm wrote:<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato="8,50" guitar-palm-mute="yes">

<palm-mute>
</palm-mute>

Remember palm-mute is not the same thing as mute, it’s a partial mute. Fully muted notes on the guitar are indicated with x note heads and have no neck position.

I would like to see everything in this Guitar Notation Legend implemented in MusicXML

<http://www.halleonard.com/bin/GuitarNotationLegend.pdf>

Cheers,

On 22 Feb 2014,
Mogens Lundholm wrote:Hello Snake and all

Doing the music-xml-player I have some thoughts about this. I would like vibrato, mute and let-ring to be a property of the note and also have information of how to do this. The example of an F-note below shows a solution with 8 times vibrato and 50% of a note step. This should be easy for me (and others) to convert into an adequate midi command. Example 1: Existing MuseScore plays this without notice, Finale gives a warning but accepts it. My player plays it. Of cause without vibrato. Do not have Midi-Specification here - A muted guitar exists as instrument, but I will call this tomorrow. Anyway the sound will be limited to what is possible for the midi synthesizer. But not impossible. (considering midi Control Change 76,77,78: Vibrato, 1: Modulation Wheel , 39 Volume, 64: Damper, 66 Sostenuto, 74 Brightness and others - not perfect, they affect the channel). <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato="8,50" guitar- mute="yes"> <pitch> <step>F</step> <octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>1</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
</note>

And let ring: <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" guitar-let-ring="yes">

Could this be acceptable? (Style and functionality - enough information to set the symbol at right place) An alternative solution would be

<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00">
<pitch>
<step>F</step>
<octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>1</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<vibrato-times>8</vibrato-time>
<vibrato-level>50</vibrato-level>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
</note>

However this is not accepted by MuseScore nor Finale.But the first solution is compatible with existing MuseScore and Finale.

Look forward to hear your opinion

Kind regards Mogens


Somebody wrote:Dolet 6 is generating the following. Palm Mute <direction-type>
<words default-y='11' relative-x='-5'>P.M.</words>
</direction-type>
I would like to see something like this. <technical>
<palm mute>
<string>5</string>
<fret>0</fret>
</palm mute>
</technical>
Let Ring <direction-type>
<words default-y='24' relative-x='-1'>let ring</words>
</direction-type>
I would like to see <technical>
<let ring>
<string>2</string>
<fret>5</fret>
</let ring>
</technical>
Vibrato Nothing is generated I would like to see <technical>
<vibrato>
<string>2</string>
<fret>5</fret>
</vibrato>
</technical>
These new elements would give us the Visual Notation and Performance Cheers,
snake
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

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