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MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Moderator: Michael Good

Re: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby snake » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:39 pm

Hey Guys,

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears there are no musicxml elements for the following?

Vibrato

Palm Mute

Let Ring

If this is the case, they are very commonly used Guitar Dynamics and should be added to the standard.

Cheers,

On 3 Feb 2014,
Mogens Lundholm wrote:Hello all

A Music-Xml/Midi-player is avaiblable at www.programfabriken.com, called midi.exe. It runs pt. on PC only. No installation is needed - unpack the zip-file and run.

Regards Mogens
snake
 
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RE: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby Scott Lis » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:01 am

Vibrato or trill, the trill is easily indicated with existing nomenclature, but vibrato seems to be more of an embellishment or individual style with other instruments like flute, violin, etc.? Palm mute and let ring could be indicated by standard music notation -- accent mark, ties, note length. They are similar to the pedals on the piano, but why create new symbols just for one family of instruments, especially when the existing symbols may do the trick.

While it may be good to add additional special symbols for guitar, these aren't commonly used. In practice it is good to see the chords with an occasional indication of rhythm and rests. It would probably be better to add more freedom in general for extensibility. That is, the instructor
"notes" or comment field on how a section should be interpreted and played, among other things. The notes field could be used to indicate the desired style and to give specific instructions like: use palm mute, or mute with the left hand -- a much better approach in jazz.

Sorry if this has already been covered, I've been busy and haven't kept up with the thread in the past few years.

-Scott

snake wrote:Hey Guys,

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears there are no musicxml elements for the following?

Vibrato

Palm Mute

Let Ring

If this is the case, they are very commonly used Guitar Dynamics and should be added to the standard.

Cheers,

On 3 Feb 2014, >
Mogens Lundholm wrote:Hello all

A Music-Xml/Midi-player is avaiblable at www.programfabriken.com, called midi.exe. It runs pt. on PC only. No installation is needed - unpack the zip-file and run.

Regards Mogens
Scott Lis
 
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Re: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby Mogens Lundholm » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:23 pm

Hello "Snake" and others

About palm mute (from the Music Xml definition):
Element "mute" defined in common.mod:
The mute element represents muting for different instruments,
including brass, winds, and strings. The on and off values
are used for undifferentiated mutes. The remaining values
represent specific mutes: straight, cup, harmon-no-stem,
harmon-stem, bucket, plunger, hat, solotone, practice,
stop-mute, stop-hand, echo, and palm.

Isn't that useable?

Kind regards Mogens


Scott Lis wrote:Vibrato or trill, the trill is easily indicated with existing nomenclature, but vibrato seems to be more of an embellishment or individual style with other instruments like flute, violin, etc.? Palm mute and let ring could be indicated by standard music notation -- accent mark, ties, note length. They are similar to the pedals on the piano, but why create new symbols just for one family of instruments, especially when the existing symbols may do the trick.

While it may be good to add additional special symbols for guitar, these aren't commonly used. In practice it is good to see the chords with an occasional indication of rhythm and rests. It would probably be better to add more freedom in general for extensibility. That is, the instructor "notes" or comment field on how a section should be interpreted and played, among other things. The notes field could be used to indicate the desired style and to give specific instructions like: use palm mute, or mute with the left hand -- a much better approach in jazz.

Sorry if this has already been covered, I've been busy and haven't kept up with the thread in the past few years.

-Scott

snake wrote:Hey Guys,

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears there are no musicxml elements for the following?

Vibrato

Palm Mute

Let Ring

If this is the case, they are very commonly used Guitar Dynamics and should be added to the standard.

Cheers,

On 3 Feb 2014, >>
Mogens Lundholm
 
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Re: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby snake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:04 pm

Hey Guys,

Missed this one.

Is that useable for guitar to represent right hand mute or palm muting? No.

I will clarify this technique for non guitar players.

It’s usually notated using "P.M." - Palm Mute, with a doted line to cover all notes this dynamic is to be applied to.

It’s not a full mute, it’s a partial mute. So the note is heard but doesn’t sustain.

It’s achieved by placing the palm of the picking hand where the bridge and the strings meet.

With distortion this generates a heavy chugging sound and is widely used in Heavy Metal.

To clarify "P.M." is the element that needs to be seen on the score, <Palm Mute> is what I would like to see added to the MusicXML definition.

Cheers,

On 13 Feb 2014,
Mogens Lundholm wrote:Hello "Snake" and others

About palm mute (from the Music Xml definition): Element "mute" defined in common.mod: The mute element represents muting for different instruments, including brass, winds, and strings. The on and off values are used for undifferentiated mutes. The remaining values represent specific mutes: straight, cup, harmon-no-stem, harmon-stem, bucket, plunger, hat, solotone, practice, stop-mute, stop-hand, echo, and palm.

Isn't that useable?

Kind regards Mogens


Scott Lis wrote:Vibrato or trill, the trill is easily indicated with existing nomenclature, but vibrato seems to be more of an embellishment or individual style with other instruments like flute, violin, etc.? Palm mute and let ring could be indicated by standard music notation -- accent mark, ties, note length. They are similar to the pedals on the piano, but why create new symbols just for one family of instruments, especially when the existing symbols may do the trick. While it may be good to add additional special symbols for guitar, these aren't commonly used. In practice it is good to see the chords with an occasional indication of rhythm and rests. It would probably be better to add more freedom in general for extensibility. That is, the instructor "notes" or comment field on how a section should be interpreted and played, among other things. The notes field could be used to indicate the desired style and to give specific instructions like: use palm mute, or mute with the left hand -- a much better approach in jazz. Sorry if this has already been covered, I've been busy and haven't kept up with the thread in the past few years. -Scott
snake
 
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Re: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby snake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:13 pm

Hey Scott,

Vibrato and trill are not the same thing, Vibrato is extremely important to guitar and a big part of establishing a personal sound.

Palm Mute and left hand mute and not the same thing and don’t achieve the same sound. A full muted note in guitar notation is represented with a x note head, that’s all that is needed.

Palm Mute is a very specific technique that achieves a partial mute of the note.

Guitar Notation evolved in the 80’s thanks to players pushing the boundaries, the need to document these new techniques in a score and the introduction of TAB.

The best reference for TAB and guitar notation is from the major Guitar Magazines and publishers of transcriptions.

This new notation is commonly used, just have a look at any of the following publications.

E.g.

Guitar Player Magazine Guitar World etc

Cherry Lane Hal Leonard etc

These guitar notation references are usually one page charts, I will send all of them to Michael.

Cheers,

On 13 Feb 2014,
Scott Lis wrote:Vibrato or trill, the trill is easily indicated with existing nomenclature, but vibrato seems to be more of an embellishment or individual style with other instruments like flute, violin, etc.? Palm mute and let ring could be indicated by standard music notation -- accent mark, ties, note length. They are similar to the pedals on the piano, but why create new symbols just for one family of instruments, especially when the existing symbols may do the trick.

While it may be good to add additional special symbols for guitar, these aren't commonly used. In practice it is good to see the chords with an occasional indication of rhythm and rests. It would probably be better to add more freedom in general for extensibility. That is, the instructor "notes" or comment field on how a section should be interpreted and played, among other things. The notes field could be used to indicate the desired style and to give specific instructions like: use palm mute, or mute with the left hand -- a much better approach in jazz. Sorry if this has already been covered, I've been busy and haven't kept up with the thread in the past few years.

-Scott

snake wrote:Hey Guys,

Correct me if I’m wrong but it appears there are no musicxml elements for the following?

Vibrato

Palm Mute

Let Ring

If this is the case, they are very commonly used Guitar Dynamics and should be added to the standard.

Cheers,

On 3 Feb 2014, >>
snake
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby snake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 pm

Here is a guitar notation legend for anyone that is interested.

On 22 Feb 2014,
snake wrote:Hey Scott,

Vibrato and trill are not the same thing, Vibrato is extremely important to guitar and a big part of establishing a personal sound.

Palm Mute and left hand mute and not the same thing and don’t achieve the same sound. A full muted note in guitar notation is represented with a x note head, that’s all that is needed.

Palm Mute is a very specific technique that achieves a partial mute of the note.

Guitar Notation evolved in the 80’s thanks to players pushing the boundaries, the need to document these new techniques in a score and the introduction of TAB.

The best reference for TAB and guitar notation is from the major Guitar Magazines and publishers of transcriptions.

This new notation is commonly used, just have a look at any of the following publications.

E.g.

Guitar Player Magazine Guitar World etc

Cherry Lane Hal Leonard etc

These guitar notation references are usually one page charts, I will send all of them to Michael.

Cheers,

On 13 Feb 2014, >
Scott Lis wrote:Vibrato or trill, the trill is easily indicated with existing nomenclature, but vibrato seems to be more of an embellishment or individual style with other instruments like flute, violin, etc.? Palm mute and let ring could be indicated by standard music notation -- accent mark, ties, note length. They are similar to the pedals on the piano, but why create new symbols just for one family of instruments, especially when the existing symbols may do the trick.

While it may be good to add additional special symbols for guitar, these aren't commonly used. In practice it is good to see the chords with an occasional indication of rhythm and rests. It would probably be better to add more freedom in general for extensibility. That is, the instructor "notes" or comment field on how a section should be interpreted and played, among other things. The notes field could be used to indicate the desired style and to give specific instructions like: use palm mute, or mute with the left hand -- a much better approach in jazz. Sorry if this has already been covered, I've been busy and haven't kept up with the thread in the past few years.

-Scott

snake
 
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Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby snake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:45 pm

<http://www.halleonard.com/bin/GuitarNotationLegend.pdf>

On 22 Feb 2014,
snake wrote:Here is a guitar notation legend for anyone that is interested.

On 22 Feb 2014, >
snake wrote:Hey Scott,

Vibrato and trill are not the same thing, Vibrato is extremely important to guitar and a big part of establishing a personal sound.

Palm Mute and left hand mute and not the same thing and don’t achieve the same sound. A full muted note in guitar notation is represented with a x note head, that’s all that is needed.

Palm Mute is a very specific technique that achieves a partial mute of the note.

Guitar Notation evolved in the 80’s thanks to players pushing the boundaries, the need to document these new techniques in a score and the introduction of TAB.

The best reference for TAB and guitar notation is from the major Guitar Magazines and publishers of transcriptions.

This new notation is commonly used, just have a look at any of the following publications.

E.g.

Guitar Player Magazine Guitar World etc

Cherry Lane Hal Leonard etc

These guitar notation references are usually one page charts, I will send all of them to Michael.

Cheers,

On 13 Feb 2014, >>
snake
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: MusicXML community meetings in 2014

Postby Mogens Lundholm » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:03 am

Hello Snake and others

Could not help but try to implement vibrato in the player. Added the vibrato command as proposed into the XML-file for hand after having produced the Music XML-file by MuseScore. Can be heard at www.programfabriken.com and the xml-file is included in the midi.zip-file.

Noted that the guitar sound was no good in both the player and MuseScore
- but better in Finale. Why? Since the Finale, that I have, is only a reader, I cannot see which midi- commands that Finale use. If anybody with a full Finale could make a Midi-file out of the XML-file I would be glad.

Next step could be "Palm mute". But how to find out what the Synthesizer can do?

Kind regards Mogens

expanded with symbols in GuitarNotationLegend:

Scott Lis wrote:Looks like you guys have the guitar notation covered. It would be a good test to line up some advanced students to see how accurately they can reproduce the original intent from reading the score -- once it is available.

-Scott

Mogens Lundholm wrote:Hello Snake and all

Thanks for your good comment. What do the originators of Music XML think about adding such stuff as properties to a note definition? Advantage: Works with existing programs MuseScore and Finale (ignored - a warning comes in Finale). May be expanded with all symbols listed in GuitarNotationLegend.

<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato="8,50">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" palm-mute="yes">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" let-ring="yes">

or with "guitar prefix" <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" guitar-palm-mute="yes">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" guitar-let-ring="yes">

This could be easily expanded with the symbols in GuitarNotationLegend:
(put on the first note, "tie"-defines the other note)

Bend to next note (note pitch decides the step): <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" bend="yes">

Grace Note Bend: <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" grace-note-bend="yes">

Slight: <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" slight="yes">

Bend and Release: (The first note have "bend", the next "release") <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" release="yes">

Prebend: <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" prebend="yes">

Unison Bend: <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" unison-bend="yes">

<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato="8,50" vibrato-wide="no">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato="4,100" vibrato-wide="yes">
- Numbers for the player, yes or no for the note-sheet

Hammer On <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" hammer-on="yes">

Pull-off <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" pull-off="yes">

Legato Slide <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" legato-slide="yes">

Shift Slide <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" shift-slide="yes">

Trill (5 times 100% of halfnote) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" trill="5,100">

Tapping <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" tapping="yes">

Natural Harmonic (The number is the division = here half of the string length) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" natural-harmonic="2">

Pinch Harmonic (The number is the division = here half of the string length) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" pinch-harmonic="2">

Harp Harmonic (The number is the division = here half of the string length) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" harp-harmonic="2">

Pick Scrape (500% of halfnote = 5 steps) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" pick-scrape="500">

Muffled Strings (applied on all the notes involved) ("strings" or
"string"?) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" muffled-strings="yes">

Palm Mute (applied on all notes involved) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" palm-mute="yes">

Rake (tie defines how long) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" rake="yes">

Tremolo Picking (Here picked 9 times) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" tremolo-picking="9">

Arpeggiate (Number of rolls) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" arpeggiate="4">

Vibrato Bar Drive (The note pitch defines the step) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato-bar-drive="yes">

Vibrato Bar Scoop (The note pitch defines the step) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato-bar-scoop="yes">

Vibrato Bar Dip (100% of half step) <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" vibrato-bar-dip="100">

Accent (level 0..127): <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" accent="100" accent-type="higher">

Accent (level 0..127): <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" accent="127" accent-type="highest">

Staccato (Length in percent of length without staccato): <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" staccato="50">

Downstroke: <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" downstroke="yes">

Upstroke: <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" upstroke="yes">

Rhytmic Figure, Fill, Riff, Rytmic Fill and Tacet <note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" rhytmic-figure="yes">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" riff="yes">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" fill="yes">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" rhytmic-fill="yes">
<note default-x="126.14" default-y="-35.00" tacet="yes">

Kind regards Mogens


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