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proper use of <wavy-line>

Moderator: Michael Good

proper use of <wavy-line>

Postby Thomas Weber » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:21 am

Another question on proper use: Where would I put the <wavy-line type="end"/> element? If I have a trill, does it go to the last note that belongs to the trill or to the first note that doesn't? If there are grace notes that indicate how to perform the end of the trill, does it go the first, the last or neither of them?

Below are two of the possibilites.

Thanks!
Thomas Weber

Code: Select all
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE score-partwise PUBLIC "-//Recordare//DTD MusicXML 2.0 Partwise//EN" "http://www.musicxml.org/dtds/partwise.dtd">
<score-partwise>
 <part-list>
   <score-part id="Test">
     <part-name>Test</part-name>
   </score-part>
 </part-list>
 <part id="Test">
   <measure number="1">
     <attributes>
       <divisions>1</divisions>
       <time>
         <beats>3</beats>
         <beat-type>4</beat-type>
       </time>
       <clef>
         <sign>G</sign>
         <line>2</line>
       </clef>
     </attributes>
     <note>
       <pitch>
         <step>B</step>
         <octave>4</octave>
       </pitch>
       <duration>2</duration>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>half</type>
       <notations>
         <slur type="start"/>
         <ornaments>
           <trill-mark/>
           <wavy-line type="start"/>
         </ornaments>
       </notations>
     </note>
     <note>
       <grace/>
       <pitch>
         <step>A</step>
         <octave>4</octave>
       </pitch>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>eighth</type>
       <beam number="1">begin</beam>
       <notations>
         <ornaments>
           <wavy-line type="stop"/>
         </ornaments>
       </notations>
     </note>
     <note>
       <grace/>
       <pitch>
         <step>B</step>
         <octave>4</octave>
       </pitch>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>eighth</type>
       <beam number="1">end</beam>
     </note>
     <note>
       <pitch>
         <step>C</step>
         <octave>5</octave>
       </pitch>
       <duration>1</duration>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>quarter</type>
       <notations>
         <slur type="stop"/>
       </notations>
     </note>
   </measure>
   <measure number="2">
     <note>
       <pitch>
         <step>B</step>
         <octave>4</octave>
       </pitch>
       <duration>2</duration>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>half</type>
       <notations>
         <slur type="start"/>
         <ornaments>
           <trill-mark/>
           <wavy-line type="start"/>
           <wavy-line type="stop"/>
         </ornaments>
       </notations>
     </note>
     <note>
       <grace/>
       <pitch>
         <step>A</step>
         <octave>4</octave>
       </pitch>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>eighth</type>
       <beam number="1">begin</beam>
     </note>
     <note>
       <grace/>
       <pitch>
         <step>B</step>
         <octave>4</octave>
       </pitch>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>eighth</type>
       <beam number="1">end</beam>
     </note>
     <note>
       <pitch>
         <step>C</step>
         <octave>5</octave>
       </pitch>
       <duration>1</duration>
       <voice>1</voice>
       <type>quarter</type>
       <notations>
         <slur type="stop"/>
       </notations>
     </note>
   </measure>
 </part>
</score-partwise>
Thomas Weber
 
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RE: proper use of <wavy-line>

Postby Michael Good » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:58 pm

Hi Thomas,

It can go either way, with the positioning attributes used to specify the exact ending position. For the last note of a part, obviously the ending element needs to go on the last note of the trill. However it is often more clear to put the element on the first note that is not in the trill.

For grace notes, that depends on the source. If they are under the wavy line in the source, then put the ending element on the regular note. If not, put it on the first grace note.

Due to the way that most notation programs handle grace notes, you probably won't get the exact positioning you want (before the grace note) during import without specifying the positioning attributes.

Best regards,

Michael Good
Recordare LLC

Thomas Weber wrote:Another question on proper use: Where would I put the <wavy-line type="end"/> element? If I have a trill, does it go to the last note that belongs to the trill or to the first note that doesn't? If there are grace notes that indicate how to perform the end of the trill, does it go the first, the last or neither of them?

Below are two of the possibilites.

Thanks!
Thomas Weber
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Michael Good
 
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Re: proper use of <wavy-line>

Postby Thomas Weber » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:04 pm

Thanks Michael,

I didn't take into account what happens when the trill note is the last one. That makes the feature a bit fuzzy to interpret, especially when the second to the last note has <wavy-line type="start"/> and the last one <wavy-line type="end"/> because there is no way to tell whether the last note still belongs to the trill (or whatever the wavy line might stand for in a particular case) or not. At least not from the logical information. If there is graphical information that might give a hint. The most consistent way seems to always put <wavy-line type="end"/> inside the last note that belongs to the "wavy feature". But that's apparently not the way it's used at the moment.

Regards,
Thomas Weber

Thomas Weber wrote:
Michael Good wrote:Hi Thomas,

It can go either way, with the positioning attributes used to specify the exact ending position. For the last note of a part, obviously the ending element needs to go on the last note of the trill. However it is often more clear to put the element on the first note that is not in the trill.

For grace notes, that depends on the source. If they are under the wavy line in the source, then put the ending element on the regular note. If not, put it on the first grace note.

Due to the way that most notation programs handle grace notes, you probably won't get the exact positioning you want (before the grace note) during import without specifying the positioning attributes.

Best regards,

Michael Good
Recordare LLC


Another question on proper use: Where would I put the <wavy-line type="end"/> element? If I have a trill, does it go to the last note that belongs to the trill or to the first note that doesn't? If there are grace notes that indicate how to perform the end of the trill, does it go the first, the last or neither of them?

Below are two of the possibilites.

Thanks!
Thomas Weber
Thomas Weber
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

Re: proper use of <wavy-line>

Postby Evan Brooks » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:22 pm

Hi Michael,

I would like to re-open this subject of discussion, but limit it to the rendered interpretation of wavy-lines based on where they are listed in the MusicXML data.

Please see the attached file (from the LilyPond test suite), and ignore the unfortunate illegal MusicXML tag placements that are in it for purposes of discussion.

wavy-line START

It seems clear that, absent any included positional data, a wavy-line should be drawn to start even with the left side of the note head belonging to the <note> element that contains the wavy-line start. Obviously, if there is an accompanying <trill-mark> element, then the trill-mark element would start at the left side of the note head, followed closely by the start of the wavy line. If you disagree with this, let me know.

wavy-line STOP

Here is big problem. If you take the MusicXML literally, the STOP position of the wavy-line is the same as the divisionCount (or default-x) value of the <note> element that contains it. This seems to imply that the wavy line must stop at the "beginning" of that note, or the left side of its note head. Certain sources teach that a wavy-line used for a trill, when covering more than one note in the score, should terminate at the right side of the last note head in that trill. This makes sense to me. And if this is the case, I would not terminate the wavy line at the left side of the note head containing the wavy-line STOP, but rather the right side of the PREVIOUS note head.

On the other hand, one could interpret a wavy-line stop inside a note element as meaning that the entire note element is within the wavy-line, which stops at the end of that note, possibly meaning the right side of its note head.

Your recommendation in 2011:

"For the last note of a part, obviously the ending element needs to go on the last note of the trill. However it is often more clear to put the element on the first note that is not in the trill."

This seems to me as though you are proposing two entirely different interpretations, and telling us to pick whichever we prefer. Let me know if I am misunderstanding this. Obviously a self-conflicting recommendation is confusing at best, and will lead to MusicXML files out there that can never be properly interpreted for certain at worst.

So the question remains from 2011:

Is the <note> element that contains a wavy-line STOP the last note of the wavy line (and therefore covered by the wavy line), or is that note element the first note AFTER the wavy line (and therefore NOT covered by the wavy line)?

And the corollary question lingers:

Does putting a wavy-line into a note element, without any other position information included in the wavy-line, imply that the wavy-line, as a child of the note element, shares the divisionCount and default-x values of that parent note element?

Note that the answer to the second question, which is a more general question about the inheritance of positional and beat values, will have significant effect on the answer to the first question.

I would propose that this community really needs a single, consistent answer to this question, so that we can all read and write MusicXML files that are truly interchangeable and representative of the original scores they come from. If some of us have to go back and change some code to comply with this, so be it, but for right now I don't think the situation can be left as is.

Finally:

If you look at Measure 7 of the attached file, you will notice that the LilyPond folks (probably mistakenly) put both the wavy-line start and end of a wavy-line inside the same note element. Based on the recommendations given over the last few years, that situation could be interpreted quite a few ways. We need some recommendations that give us only one way of interpreting this.

You should also note that if Finale 2014 imports this file, and then re-exports it as MusicXML, the wavy-line STOPs are now in different note events than in the original file. I would think this is a bug, and probably one that should be looked at in light of all of the above.

Thanks for your ear on this,

--Evan
Attachments
33a-Spanners.xml
wavy-line examples from LilyPond test suite
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Evan Brooks
 
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