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Slurs

Moderator: Michael Good

Slurs

Postby Leon Vinken » Fri Nov 01, 2002 2:42 pm

Hi all,

I am writing the MusicXML support for KGuitar, an open-source guitar tablature editor (see: http://kguitar.sourceforge.net/) and need help with a few questions about slurs in MusicXML.

Am I right in assuming that (in the context of classical guitar music) both hammer-on/pull-off and slides would be written in MusicXML as slurs ?

If so, how would I make the distinction between the two ?

After studying the examples in xmlsamples.zip, I still fail to understand how to use the "number" attribute in the <slur> element. Could anyone explain when I need it and how the numbers are used ?

Thank you, Leon Vinken.
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RE: Slurs

Postby Michael Good » Sat Nov 02, 2002 8:23 pm

Hello Leon,

Slurs, hammer-on/pull-offs, and slides are all different elements in MusicXML. Slurs indicated by curved lines can go over multiple notes, while there are individual hammer-on and pull-off H and P symbols between each pair of notes.

The <slide> element is coming in MusicXML 0.7. For now, the closest thing would be a <glissando> element. Use a line-type="solid" attribute so you don't get the wavy line usually used by a glissando. The <slide>
element will work the same way in 0.7. The difference is that <slide> is used for instruments like guitar, where the slide is continuous, while <glissando> is used for instruments like piano or harp where it is broken into discrete notes.


http://www.musicxml.org/dtds/07/musicxml07.zip

Each individual DTD file is available in that directory as well. MusicXML 0.7 is a draft, and subject to change before release - especially based on developer feedback. You didn't ask about bends, but the <bend> element is also coming in 0.7.

There is already a <slide> element in MusicXML 0.6c, but that is for a slide ornament perhaps more commonly known, even in English, by its German name of Schleifer. We are currently planning to change the existing <slide> element to a <schleifer> element. This works best if
"Schleifer" is not so commonly used for a guitar tab slide in German. Any advice on this would be appreciated!

You probably don't need to use multiple slurs in guitar music, in which case you could always use the default number of "1". But multiple slurs happening at once in a single part are common in voice and piano music. In vocal music, you can have a slur indicating a melisma (one syllable sung on several notes) within a larger slur for the phrase. Piano music can have separate slurs for the left and right hand at the same time, as well as smaller slurs within larger slurs. Any time this overlap or nesting happens within a single part, you want to use the number attribute to differentiate slurs. I can't recall seeing this in guitar music, but you might see it in the voice part for songs.

Let me know if you have any more questions on this, or comments on the new features in MusicXML 0.7.

Best regards,

Michael Good Recordare LLC



Hi all,

I am writing the MusicXML support for KGuitar, an open-source guitar tablature editor (see: http://kguitar.sourceforge.net/) and need help with a few questions about slurs in MusicXML.

Am I right in assuming that (in the context of classical guitar music) both hammer-on/pull-off and slides would be written in MusicXML as slurs ?

If so, how would I make the distinction between the two ?

After studying the examples in xmlsamples.zip, I still fail to understand how to use the "number" attribute in the <slur> element. Could anyone explain when I need it and how the numbers are used ?

Thank you, Leon Vinken.
Michael Good
VP of MusicXML Technologies
MakeMusic, Inc.
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Re: Slurs

Postby Leon Vinken » Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:51 pm

Hello Michael,

thank you for your quick reply. Let me see if I understand things completely. Suppose I need a hamer-on between the first and second fret on the guitar's A string. Would that be written in MusicXML 0.7 as:

<note>
<pitch>
<step>A</step>
<alter>1</alter>
<octave>3</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>48</duration>
<type>quarter</type>
<accidental>sharp</accidental>
<notations>
<technical>
<string>5</string>
<fret>1</fret>
<hammer-on type="start"/>
</technical>
</notations>
</note>
<note>
<pitch>
<step>B</step>
<octave>3</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>48</duration>
<type>quarter</type>
<notations>
<technical>
<string>5</string>
<fret>2</fret>
<hammer-on type="stop"/>
</technical>
</notations>
</note>

using a bottleneck sliding on the strings (continuous) and by sliding a left hand finger over the fretboard (discrete). Would I use a <slide> for the first and a <glissando> for the second ?

Would the correct notations be (pitch etc. removed for brevity):

<notations>
<slide type="start"/>
<technical>
<string>5</string>
<fret>1</fret>
</technical>
</notations>

and:

<notations>
<glissando type="start"/>
<technical>
<string>5</string>
<fret>1</fret>
</technical>
</notations>

I did not ask about bends, because these are not (yet ?) supported by KGuitar. As far as the "Schleifer" is concerned, I cannot help you: I've never heard about it. Note: I am Dutch, not German.

Regards, Leon.


Michael Good wrote:Hello Leon,

Slurs, hammer-on/pull-offs, and slides are all different elements in MusicXML. Slurs indicated by curved lines can go over multiple notes, while there are individual hammer-on and pull-off H and P symbols between each pair of notes.

The <slide> element is coming in MusicXML 0.7. For now, the closest thing would be a <glissando> element. Use a line-type="solid" attribute so you don't get the wavy line usually used by a glissando. The <slide>
element will work the same way in 0.7. The difference is that <slide> is used for instruments like guitar, where the slide is continuous, while <glissando> is used for instruments like piano or harp where it is broken into discrete notes.


http://www.musicxml.org/dtds/07/musicxml07.zip

Each individual DTD file is available in that directory as well. MusicXML 0.7 is a draft, and subject to change before release - especially based on developer feedback. You didn't ask about bends, but the <bend> element is also coming in 0.7.

There is already a <slide> element in MusicXML 0.6c, but that is for a slide ornament perhaps more commonly known, even in English, by its German name of Schleifer. We are currently planning to change the existing <slide> element to a <schleifer> element. This works best if
"Schleifer" is not so commonly used for a guitar tab slide in German. Any advice on this would be appreciated!

You probably don't need to use multiple slurs in guitar music, in which case you could always use the default number of "1". But multiple slurs happening at once in a single part are common in voice and piano music. In vocal music, you can have a slur indicating a melisma (one syllable sung on several notes) within a larger slur for the phrase. Piano music can have separate slurs for the left and right hand at the same time, as well as smaller slurs within larger slurs. Any time this overlap or nesting happens within a single part, you want to use the number attribute to differentiate slurs. I can't recall seeing this in guitar music, but you might see it in the voice part for songs.

Let me know if you have any more questions on this, or comments on the new features in MusicXML 0.7.

Best regards,

Michael Good Recordare LLC



Hi all,

I am writing the MusicXML support for KGuitar, an open-source guitar tablature editor (see: http://kguitar.sourceforge.net/) and need help with a few questions about slurs in MusicXML.

Am I right in assuming that (in the context of classical guitar music) both hammer-on/pull-off and slides would be written in MusicXML as slurs ?

If so, how would I make the distinction between the two ?

After studying the examples in xmlsamples.zip, I still fail to understand how to use the "number" attribute in the <slur> element. Could anyone explain when I need it and how the numbers are used ?

Thank you, Leon Vinken.
Leon Vinken
 
Posts: 29
Joined: March, 2014
Reputation: 0

RE: Slurs

Postby Michael Good » Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:54 pm

Hi Leon,

The hammer-on examples look right. If you want a curved slur line to appear as well as an "H", you would also add a <slur type="start"/> and <slur type="stop"/> to the respective <notations> elements. Most of the guitar music that I have seen would use both the <slur> and <hammer-on>, though it varies by publisher.

The distinction between <glissando> and <slide> seems correct for MusicXML 0.7 (no <slide> in 0.6c). If you want a straight line to appear in either case, make it a <glissando type="start" line-type="solid"/>. Otherwise you will get a wavy line for the glissando.

Best regards, Michael
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MakeMusic, Inc.
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Re: slurs

Postby Jan de Kloe » Thu May 01, 2003 10:28 am

In the following example: <note>
<pitch>
<step>D</step>
<octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>2</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
<notations>
<slur type="start" placement="above" number="1"/>
</notations>
</note>
<note>
<pitch>
<step>C</step>
<octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>2</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
<notations>
<slur type="stop" number="1"/>
</notations>
</note>

it is not obvious that the up slur between two upstem notes is between the notes or between the tips of the stems. Both situations in Finale cause the same MusicXML. Question: Could 'placement' be extended to 'above-between-notes' and
'above-between-stems' etc.? This extension is desirable for input into a notesetting tool. The matter could be extended for slurs between notes with opposite stem directions. Jan
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Re: slurs

Postby Kevin Bowman » Thu May 01, 2003 11:43 am

An what about situations where a slur begins on a notehead but ends on a stem end or even mid-stem? Presentation-wise, there's quite a bit of subjectivity when placing slurs. The basic rule is that slurs be placed in such a way as to not interfere or collide with other objects (accents, stems, etc). There are also odd situations where a slur starts on one staff and ends on another (e.g. L.H. to R.H on a piano score).

I'm not suggesting any solutions here, just trying to make the list aware of the potential complications
(playing devil's advocate, if you will). Personally, I'm not sure how far into "presentation" MusicXML should go.

Regards, Kevin Bowman

Jan de Kloe wrote:In the following example: <note>
<pitch>
<step>D</step>
<octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>2</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
<notations>
<slur type="start" placement="above" number="1"/>
</notations>
</note>
<note>
<pitch>
<step>C</step>
<octave>4</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>2</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<type>quarter</type>
<stem>up</stem>
<notations>
<slur type="stop" number="1"/>
</notations>
</note>

it is not obvious that the up slur between two upstem notes is between the notes or between the tips of the stems. Both situations in Finale cause the same MusicXML. Question: Could 'placement' be extended to
'above-between-notes' and
'above-between-stems' etc.? This extension is desirable for input into a notesetting tool. The matter could be extended for slurs between notes with opposite stem directions. Jan



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Re: slurs

Postby Andrew Parker » Thu May 01, 2003 1:51 pm

>In the following example:

[example snipped]

Jan de Kloe wrote:it is not obvious that the up slur between two upstem notes is between the notes or between the tips of the stems. Both situations in Finale cause the same MusicXML. Question: Could 'placement' be extended to 'above-between-notes' and
'above-between-stems' etc.? This extension is desirable for input into a notesetting tool. The matter could be extended for slurs between notes with opposite stem directions. Jan

Jan,

We probably oughtn't to get too much into a discussion of engraving rules on this list, but a stem-side slur (as opposed to a tie) according to the Leipzig rules should never be between the the noteheads, and in fact never closer to the noteheads than a third of the way down the stem.

It probably isn't the duty of MusicXML to start to dictate engraving placement rules or preferences, and I think it not a very good idea for an interchange format to try to preserve in the transfer of data to one engraving tool what may have been done according to slightly wayward house-style rules in another. It ought to be sufficient to distinguish between note-side and stem-side placement of slurs, as is presently done by having the slur shown as "above" when the stems are up, or "below" when the stems are down. The default behaviour you then accord to those stem-side slurs, be it to get them much closer to the noteheads, if that is your wish, should surely be a feature of the profile settings of your converter.
In other words, the profile settings for the converter can work towards implementing house-style interpretation when the MusicXML is rendered in the particular engraving tool.

Regards, Andrew Parker.
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RE: slurs

Postby Michael Good » Thu May 01, 2003 4:08 pm

Hi Jan,

I think this type of more detailed information might be able to be handled with the position attributes. This may involve some rework of the different position attribute definitions, which are a bit unclear at the moment.

Since stem lengths are not represented in MusicXML, I'm not sure how having an offset from the stem vs. note will help very much. But clarifying the behavior of the position attributes is something we plan to look at in the future.

As Andrew has mentioned, this type of detailed formatting information is something we are trying to keep outside of MusicXML if that is practical. It is similar to not including every available MIDI control within MusicXML. But changes to MusicXML are driven by repertoire and practical development problems. So if there is indeed no way to get satisfactory results with the current definitions, please send us examples and let us know.

Thanks,

Michael Good Recordare LLC
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MakeMusic, Inc.
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